best skidding and truck combo for firewood operation

I am thinking about cutting and selling firewood part time. I was wondering what kind of truck or skidding equipment any of you who do this kind of work would use for a part time operation. I obviously don't want to spend a ton of $$, as it is just a part time job. I was thinking about a tractor with a grapple attachment and a truck (what size??) with a dump bed. Does that sound like a reasonable setup or are there limitations that would be problematic? What would you use?? Thanks for the help.

First off, how much wood are you planning on selling? You would have to cut a lot of wood each year to justify a large layout of money for a truck and skidder.

If you are going to be in the $5-10k range, I would think that a 3/4 ton or larger truck would work. It is nnice to have a dump bed, but you have to get the wood up into the back of the bed - on even a small dump truck that is a long throw.

Hal

I've thought about this often, so here's some musings. A 3/4 ton pickup w/ 4wd is ideal for pulling out a 1/2 cord at a time from most locations, and would still be low enough to load by hand. Before getting a dump bed, I'd look into one of those retractable mats that let you roll the load off the back. I'm not sure of the capacity of them, but that would let you use the pickup for other uses, as opposed to a dump bed.
A friend of mine who is into land clearing and landscaping has a full ton stake body that also dumps. He can easily fit two cords per load. If you're looking at making money, this is a sweet setup. The truck is wider, though, so getting back in the woods might be an issue.
For a skidder, while I'd like to have one, I'm not sure how often I'd really use it. By the time I got it back in the woods to where the tree(s) are, I could probably get the truck in and out. So I'd be inclined to put a good size winch on the truck for pulling logs and pulling the truck out from where I probably shouldn't of tried to go.
But if I were to go that route, I'd probably go with a decent sized Kubota or comparable. Not sure if I'd put a grapple or a winch on the back, and for the front, again, not sure if I'd go with a cross grapple or a bucket. The bucket might come in handy for loading rounds in the truck. Plus, I've thought about a PTO mounted splitter and how that might work out.
Anyway, just food for thought. Let us know what you end up with.

Thanks for the input. I have been thinking about it and I think I may go with a used tractor in the 40+hp range, as I can use it for more than just wood toting. Plus the initial cost won't be all too bad. As for a truck, you all bring up good points. A friend of mine has an old dodge 1 1/2 ton (I think) with a dump bed. It has a 318 and tandem rear axle....I think it needs a little work but I can probably score it for a few hundred bucks. That may suit my purposes, although I will have to look to see how high the bed is..I never thought of that.....might be painful on the back if it is too high. THanks again.

You could always look into stacking the wood on pallets and then loading the pallets on the back of the truck with the tractor. That would definately save your back.

Or just load the split wood into the tractor bucket and then dump it into the back of the truck.

I started selling some firewood last fall. I'm putting in roads and clearing some land so I thought I'd try to get some return on my labors. So far, I've been selling a few small orders and mainly getting my name out for next winter, and stockpiling logs. The setup I put together is a 3/4 ton 4wd pu, 40hp tractor with loader and winch, and a 12 X 6 dump trailer. I have other uses for all this equipment, so the investment wasn't strictly for firewood, I just kept that in mind when shopping. To save handling the wood more than I have to, I'm using the the front end loader to fill the trailer, and figuring 180 cu. ft. for a full loose cord of wood. Wood goes by the face cord around here, so one face cord will be 10" high in the trailer. When the weather clears I'll load the trailer and then stack to see how close I am. I know it's being generous, but if it saves handling, it's worth it. With sides added to the trailer, I should be able to do 4 face cord of seasoned wood in one load. For larger orders, I'm thinking of hiring a local trucker. I think I can get one for $50-60/load, which would be 10 face cord.

how much is hardwood firewood in the usa overhere its between £40 &£50 per cubic metre...thats cut split and deliverd ,,we get $1.80 for our pound sterling

Thanks Tom....that's exactly what I want to do and your setup may be exactly what I go with as I have other uses (e.g., horses) to justify the expenditure on the equipment too. As others have mentioned here, a pu would be easier to maneuver in the woods. A cord of wood here in RI is about $150. IT has gone up quite a bit in the past year and the demand is steady as well making it a decent way to make a little extra cash although you definitely have to work hard to make your $$.

That dump my buddy had was sold (my typical luck) --but maybe for the better as I think it needed a bit of work. I think a 3/4 ton with a trailer would be good as I could leave the trailer if need be. Although a dump bed would be sweet-----but I think a dump trailer would suffice. So many choices. I still have to choose a bigger saw!

I used to sell firewood for the time it takes to cut-split and deliver it you end up making very little money at 150.00 max per cord you don't make much.

If you are going to get a truck get one with a dumping flatdeck or a box you want to beable to throw the wood in and dump it off you are wasting your time stacking it into the truck. You get a 1 ton truck with a 12x8 dumping flatdeck with 2' or 4' sides you can haul 1 cord. You will never beable to haul 2 cords on a 1 ton truck depending on what the species of wood is or how wet the wood is it will be too heavy.

I wouldn't fool around with a 3/4 ton get a 1 ton truck or a F-Superduty or a Chev 3500HD. You are going to have a tough time finding a 1 ton 4x4 with a 12' deck. You have to keep in mind a 1 ton truck with a dumping flatdeck doesn't have much carrying capacity. If you are a person that is worried about being legally loaded you may consider a 1.5 ton truck.

When your delivering wood you want to beable to deliver it in full cords making two trips to deliver one cord cost you extra money. Trying to deliver firewood in a dump trailer is nearly impossible I know in this area you would never get down a customers driveway let alone near their woodshed.

As for skidding the wood look for a Bobcat (skidsteer) you can get a set of tracks for it if you need extra traction. A small tractor would work but wouldn't be as handy as a skidsteer will be.

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
Depending on your other needs and uses, I'd think the choice would be between a pickup with dump trailer and a one-ton dump such as a Ford F350 or F450. I have no problems with a trailer and can back a truck with or without a trailer, but maneuverability might be easier with a single truck. But that would have to be weighed against the possibly higher insurance and operating costs of an F350 or F450 vs. a 3/4 ton pickup and trailer.

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surely theres no market for fire wood in the sunshine state ,am i wrong rocky...????????

I sell about 600 cord per year. Here is my suggestion about equipment:

Getting the wood out of the forest

I strongly recommend a loader tractor, preferably 4 wheel drive. A skidsteer is not a rough terrain vehicle. It's made for loader work on level surfaces. It's also difficult to attach a wood splitter or skidding winch. Bush roads are typically to rough for a pick up truck, but for a small operation it's better than nothing. A logging skidder is obviously the ultimate way to skid logs by it also out of the question do to price and the fact that you still wont have a loader to load up your truck and/or trailer or hydraulics to power a wood splitter or a PTO shaft to power a winch.

Skidding winches like those made by Farmi or Fransguard are ideal cuz they fit right on the back of your tractor and can be easily removed. You can pull a log with the tractor while the tractor is standing in one spot using this method. That's a lot easier on your machinery than pulling it with your tractor or truck. Also, it's a lot easier to use a snatch block or pulley to steer the tree if you are using a winch.

Also, if you are thinking about some kind of a "grapple" attachment or whatever forget it. It's way simple to attach a chain or cable to the log or tree and attach the other end to your skidding winch, tractor, or truck and pull.

How to transport the wood from the pile to the customer

Having the truck dump is nice, but your primary concern should be how much wood you can carry with you. I find that throwing the wood off of a truck or trailer is not very much work when you think about all the work it took you to produce that truckload. Not having to throw the wood up onto the truck is a much bigger concern. (Therefore you need the loader tractor).

Carrying a lot of wood with you is really important. People always underestimate the money it's choosing them to be on the road. Consider the your work, the deprecation on the truck, and the fuel you are burning.

So at the very least get a 3/4 ton, 1 ton, or 1.5 ton with a large box. I'd strongly recommend a big trailer too if you can afford it. (Or get 5-10 ton dump truck). Also consider hiring trucking for long distances. Another thing is that people are often willing to pick the wood up themselves if it means a discount.

Myself, have my fixed price per cord. If you pick it up then that's good. If I have to deliver it I charge a delivery charge that is bigger the greater the distance I gotta go is. The delivery charge is the same no matter if they order 1 cord or 10 cords, cuz I don't want to be bothered to make a trip for peanuts, cuz it's costing me about the same time on the road either way.

Saws and woodsplitters

There are people on here who know way more about saws than I do. So to make it quick: you need a light saw for limbing and a heavy saw for bucking. Do not split large amounts of wood with an axe. Either mount a splitter on the back of your tractor if you have one, or get a gas powered one.

This is my main equipment

• A whole bunch of saws, but my most used ones are Stihl 066 arctic, 038 magnum, MS260, 028. (I'm a stihl man).
• Agco Allis 5670 tractor. It's Four wheel drive, 70 engine hp, rugged on rough terrain and has fast and powerful hydraulic flow to power a wood splitter.
• Another 2 wheel drive tractor.
• Farmi skidding winch.
• 9 hp gas powered splitter and another splitter for behind the tractor.
• The tractors have loaders and I have a "rear bucket" which is useful if I'm transporting wood out of the bunch in front and rear buckets. The front bucket has been welded to make it extra big so I can get a lot of wood out that way with one trip. In addition I can dump it on the trailer when I reach level ground.
• 10 ton dump trailer, pintle hitch, and a 1 ton truck.

I have a guy working for me more often than not, so that's why I need enough equipment to keep us both busy. Before I got the dump trailer I used to hand bomb everything off the truck and a non-dumpable trailer. Having the dump is better, but if I had to buy all the equipment over again and I didn't want to spend as much money cuz I intended to do less cords I'd keep the essentials: 1 tractor, truck, trailer, 2-3 saws, winch and wood splitter and not bother with the rest.

Feel free to ask me any more questions if you have them.

That advice is right on! For a fairly large operation, that is just about the right mix of equipment.

Just have to consider just how much of a commitment to selling fire wood you are going to make.

Hal

Chainsaw,
My setup is similar to yours except for smaller tractor and trailer and I only have a gas powered splitter. I need another and was considering a tractor powered one. Does yours run off the hydraulics or the pto, and how do you like it compared to the gas powered one? For 600 cords, you must have an efficient way to process the wood. I'm thinking a conveyor might help speed up the process and minimize the handling. Your thoughts?

Hermann,
Thanks a bunch for the detailed information. I appreciate that you took the time to share your knowledge and experience to help me out. I think I will take your advice....it is logical and it is right on with others opinions posted for this question. I think I will try to find a dump trailer and at least a 3/4 ton pickup. The purchase of a tractor will also be easier to get "approved" by the wife as we can also use it around our property for the horses. All I have to do now is figure out whether I should by the 372 or the Dolmar 7900 and I am good. I guess my only question to you would be what would the minimum hp tractor be? I was thinking about something in the 40-50 ho range....is this too small? Thanks again.

I'll throw my two cents in here again, fwiw. I'm using a 40hp 4wd tractor. The woods I are pretty thick and the size/hp seem to be good for my situation. And, I'm not skidding a lot of big trees, mostly 10-14". I also trailer my tractor, so again, the size is right for me. I have a chipper attachment, and it has plenty of power to run that. However, bigger is usually better. Depending on your situation, you may warrant a bigger tractor, which will have a bigger load with more lift capacity. Just letting you know what works for me.
And Chainsaw/Hermann did have some great info, which was why I was so quick to try to pick his brain some more. I did see on another post that he uses a splitter running off the tractor hydraulics. That's what I figured, but I have seen them for sale with a pump that connects to the pto. My old homemade splitter works good, but I want something I can put a 4-way wedge on.

"I was thinking about something in the 40-50 ho range...."


I'm using a 4WD 38hp Kubota w/ Farmi 351. Great size, a compromise between power and size. Harvested 30 cords last week working 3 days by myself. Will haul 3-4 12" trees up and down and all around without a complaint. 6' heavy duty loader on the front for loading firewood or for stacking logs and trees on the landing. I have the AG tires and have found no need for chains to get traction in the snow or ice.

As for a splitter, I've been using a 6.5hp 27 ton cub cadet that works great for 20- 30 cords a year.

I haven't needed to put chains on either. I think they would only be of benefit if I was working in mud, which I don't plan on. These 4wd tractors seem like mini dozers to me.
And now that I've been thinking about it, I might try to upgrade the splitter I have. A new motor and a bigger splitting wedge that can take a 4 way wedge might suffice for now.

I'll just type up a giant thing again. Hope nobody minds my long-windedness.

Originally posted by tawilson
Chainsaw,
My set up is similar to yours except for smaller tractor and trailer and I only have a gas powered splitter. I need another and was considering a tractor powered one. Does yours run off the hydraulics or the PTO, and how do you like it compared to the gas powered one? For 600 cords, you must have an efficient way to process the wood. I'm thinking a conveyor might help speed up the process and minimize the handling. Your thoughts?

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It's kind of difficult to compare a gas powered splitter to a tractor mounted one. It all depends on the hydraulic flow that your tractor can deliver and the power of the gas splitter. My tractors hydraulics are 17 gallons per minute. That's high for a tractor. Your typical 40 horse tractor might deliver 10 gallons per minute or so. (You can find out the hydraulic flow of most tractors if you search the internet). In practical terms I can split an equal amount of wood in a day no matter if I'm using a 9 hp gas splitter or the tractor mounted one. A smaller tractor with splitter is approximately equal to a 5 hp store bought gas splitter or so. Obviously it's only worth considering if you have a tractor anyway and your tractor has hydraulic remotes.

I find the main advantages to tractor splitter vs gas powered is not so much that you split more wood in a day with one, but rather:

• If the tractor is diesel you will save on fuel.
• It's convenient to be able to take the splitter with you everywhere, even on rough terrain.
• If you already have a tractor it's a lot cheaper to buy a splitter for it that to buy one that has it's own engine, highway tires, lights, etc. I could pick one up for a tractor for $1000 new or $500 used (all prices in Canadian), while the gas one would cost me $2000-$4500 new. ($2000 being for a 5 hp from the hardware store and $4500 being for a 9-13 hp with 4 way split, extra large cylinder, and log lift).
• You can raise and lower the splitter with one with flip of a switch and you don't need wheels on the splitter.
• When you want to move the splitter you can see where you are going exactly rather than trying to jackknife it with your truck or push the heavy thing by hand.
• You can leave it lying around and it wont be damaged by whether and nobody will steal it cuz it's too heavy and it has no wheels.

Note about PTO and hydraulic

Most people already know this but maybe there's somebody that doesn't. The PTO (power take off) is a star shaped rod on the back of the tractor. You attach implements to it with a PTO shaft. Common PTO implements are a Farmi/fransguard or similar skidding winch, manure spreader, snow blower and various haying plowing and agricultural equipment. A hydraulic remote is a spot at the back of the tractor where you can plug in hoses. Common hydraulic equipment is a wood splitter, back hoe attachment, etc. Many implements such as a manure spreader or hay bine require both PTO and hydraulic remotes. Really big agricultural equipment like a set of disks with fold up wings may require 2 or 3 sets of remotes.

Small tractors may not have hydraulic remotes or a PTO shaft. Mid sized and larger tractors always do. I have only very rarely seen a PTO powered wood splitter because using hydraulic remotes is way more convenient. If your tractor has a PTO shaft but no remotes then that would be the only time I'd consider it. If the tractor has a loader but no remotes then there's probably a way to remove the loader and use the hydraulic flow from that to power the wood splitter. (My neighbour does that for a square baler).

For 600 cords, you must have an efficient way to process the wood. I'm thinking a conveyor might help speed up the process and minimize the handling. Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

My method is usually like this:

• If the trees or tops left over from logging are not on your property then try and compare a few places where the wood is most convenient for you to get. Consider the distance you have to travel to get there, the quality of the wood, the cost/cord ratio of the trees your buying, and the accessibility for a truck and trailer. You want bush roads that are smooth and dry and not to far from where you want to load up the wood. Roads that are swampy or really rough is a major turn off.
  
• Try and find a place to store your equipment on site. Some where where it's safe from theft and the weather. You don't want to have to take everything back with you after every days work. The less time you spend driving too and from the job site the more wood you can cut.
  
• Designate one or more loading zones. Don't take your truck down a bush road if you have a tractor to do the skidding and hauling.
  
• Cut down trees. (I find it a bonus if they are tops left over from logging cuz then you save this step). Cut off all the limbs you don't want right there so you're done with it. I go for anything less than 2 inches. Skid it to a loading zone with your tractor.
  
  I find a PTO winch really helpful because: (1) You can pull a tree without having to move the tractor and you can "steer" and prevent it from snagging on trees if you have a snatch block (a pulley). (2) You will not damage the tractor or get it stuck by taking it into rougher parts of the forest. Most parts of most forests are totally inaccessible do to rough terrain and not enough space between trees. (3) A winch is a great way to assist in falling a tree where you find the direction hard to control. Say you are afraid the tree will fall on a building, roadway, or powerline. Some of the arborists on this site would climb the tree and cut it down piece by piece. With a winch you can safely fall the whole tree (usually). (4) A snatch block may be used to "double up" the cable effectively doubling your pulling power while cutting the speed of pull in half.
  
  If it's to heavy to skid cut it in half or in thirds so you can pull it, put try and take as much with you as you can pull to save time, even if your taking 2 or 3 small trees in one trip. (A tractor with more HP is a benefit cuz you can skid more stuff. Four Wheel Drive is an even bigger benefit). An alternative is not to skid it to the landing site but to buck it right beside the bush road and perhaps even split it right there, then bring it to your landing site where your truck and trailer is in the front bucket. (And rear bucket if you have it).
  
  If you at any point find yourself having to carry wood you know that your operation is inefficient. You should (1) cut it down (2) Limb it (3) Skid it (4) Split it (5) Load it up. Also, you will be very inefficient if you find yourself having to throw wood up onto a truck or trailer rather than load it with a loader.
  
• Splitting it loading it up and driving away is self explanatory obviously.
  
• Obviously you will have to let the wood season cuz you will only very rarely get someone to knowingly buy it green. And passing improperly dried or green wood off as seasoned is very bad for business.
  
  Most people stack up their wood to dry it. Sometimes I just dump it on a big loose pile to dry it. Either way you have to make sure that it's not in the shade so the sun can get at it and that it's a nice windy spot. Also make sure that you aren't dumping it somewhere where it will get muddy underneath when the weather gets bad. If you stack it then consider putting a pallet or cedar rails or something else underneath to keep it off the ground.
  
  I'm thinking of pouring a concrete platform cuz then it wont get dirty from underneath. It will also be easier to scoop it up with a loader tractor, and I wont pick up any dirt while scooping.
  
• Measuring the wood is one good way to save time. For small orders and people that pick their wood up you'll have to bite the bullet and stack it up to measure it. If you have a dump truck or big trailer and you know about what it holds then you don't even need to measure it, just put it in loose. Scoop it up, dump it in, when it's full you are done. (Watch out that you aren't cheating the customer, but don't cheat yourself. I aim to give them 5% more than there are paying for if I don't have to stack it to measure it and exactly what they are paying for it if I do have to measure it.
  
  If you don't know what your truck or trailer holds then fill it up and throw it off again and stack up what was in there. Make sure you fill it up to that exact level every time after that. Dump a load and stack it up every once in a while to make sure that your measurement is still accurate.
  
  The beds of pick up trucks and shallow trailers are difficult to measure this way cuz it's hard to get a flat surface at the top or to fill them to a consistent level. High walled trucks and trailers are pretty accurate though. (If I'm aiming for 5 1/8 cord and I know that the maximum variance is one eighth of a cord from load to load then I can safely sell it without stacking it up).