Liquidambar Advice Needed

Hello,

I recently planted 4 liquidambar trees. One was rather large in a 36" crate and the others were 24". The large one is doing great. The other three which are in the rear of my yard are all turning colors and losing leaves even though it's barely July! Should I be concerned? I planted the trees in December and they were barren of leaves but they came in nicely in the spring so they seemed really healthy. I live in San Diego California - zone 10b, and these trees are very well suited to our climate and can be found everywhere. The trees were planted professionally with a deep watering irrigation system along with root barriers to try and train the roots to search deeply for water. I took so much care to do them correctly, that now I'm worried that something has gone wrong. Is this a sign of too much water/not enough? Any advise will be greatly appreciated. If there was a way to post a photo I'd include it.

Thanks a bunch, Christina http://www.arboristsite.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=3#
Angel

Christina, there is a way to post pictures, click "Manage Attachments".

You have a major problem with a major investment. I would contact www.asca-consultants.org to get someone out there. My first thought is aobut the root barriers; the last thing you want to do is to inhibit lateral spread of the roots of a newly planted tree.

Look at New Tree Planting and other pages in the link below to make sure planting was done right. And don't be too comfortable about the big one yet--it jsut may be slower to show symptoms.

Good Morning, Thank you for the prompt response. I will contact the specialist to see what they suggest. I could be wrong on my terminology for the root barriers. They inserted sheets of plastic that were roughly the same dimension as the size of the crate they came in along the sides of the root ball leaving the bottom open. The plastic was specifically made for this purpose. We had an elm tree with destructive roots and wanted to prevent that from happening again. I have uploaded the photo, but am not sure if it will attach so this is an experiment - sorry I'm new to the site. Thank you again

Couple of quick questions.
Where is the irrigation in relation to the root barriers.(inside or outside) How much do you irrigate. Also attaced is a resized picture.

cnswift said:

The trees were planted professionally...

Click to expand...

Just because they were planted by a professional does not guarantee that they were planted professionally. If you know what I mean? Check the planting depth. New trees are often planted too deep. Also check for girdling roots, very common on sweetgum. I would also recommend removing the support stakes. If the tree can stand up on its own, do not use a rigid stake. If support is needed, use a system that will allow for trunk movement. Rigid stakes inhibit the proper development of trunk girth.
Finally, I would be concerned about overwatering. The root barriers may be acting like a pot to hold too much water in the planting hole.

Wow, I really appreciate all the replies! In answer to some questions, the irrigation is outside of the barrier alongside the tree about 24-36" away. I'm not sure how deep they go, but they dug another hole along side to add this thing that I think is supposed to aerate the roots and when I looked in the hole there was water at the bottom. This is what made me think it was too much water. I'm not sure what zone the deep pipes are on, and need to find out on Tuesday when I can call the landscaper. I would guess they're on the same line as the grass. I water the grass twice a day every other day for 3 mins each time. The grass is looking 'crunchy' so I am concerned with cutting back on watering. Do you think the root barriers do more harm than good? We have extensive new concrete that we are trying to protect for the long term, and everything I've read said that it was important to develop the lower deep roots (tap root?). I will take out the stakes and see how they do - I just read that in the 'how to plant a tree' tutorial as well. Thank you thank you for the advice!

Could someone please explain the term 'girdling roots'? I'm not sure what that means and how to tell if I have this.

If there is water at the bottom of the hole this is definately a sign of over watering and the trees are reacting to that stress. That seems to be a lot of standing water for the short time you water the lawn, so do not rule out a leak in the irrigation. If there has been too much water since the beginning of the growing season, anaerobic soils might have occured. A quick way to tell is to smell the hole, if it smells rotton you have anaerobic soils. Deep root aeration might get rid of that problem, but the harder way is to excavate the soil and replace it. A girdling root is a root that encircles the trunk and the tree basically chokes itself.

Read "Trees and Turf" next. That watering cycle is bad for trees. I think the barrier sounds extreme in its downward training of the root system, but I am a long way from san diego. Have you found the flare yet?

Here in NC people cut down sweetgums every chance they get; weird to see them valued so. Dont get me wrong; I like em.

Amazing to me that sizing pics dowm to 8% of the original size loses little in resolution.

"If there has been too much water since the beginning of the growing season, anaerobic soils might have occured. A quick way to tell is to smell the hole, if it smells rotton you have anaerobic soils. Deep root aeration might get rid of that problem, but the harder way is to excavate the soil and replace it." ...This could be the issue here. We had an unusually heavy cycle of rain this winter and we live at the bottom of a large hill with open space behind us which drains directly into the area in question. For months and months the soil was saturated and every hole they dug for plants had water at the bottom. It has been hot and sunny however since then, so I would have thought it would dry out. Is the term anaerobic referring to a rottin of the soil? It sounds like the aerators were a good idea, although I didn't know it at the time. They stuck them in some king palms I have too, although I haven't noticed any issues with them. (knocking on wood) Replacing the soil is not an option as we've invested a great deal of money on both the lawn and the trees.

I doubt we'd have girdling roots after such a short time - don't you think? I don't have any way to check them anyway since I can't dig up the lawn. I'm praying for the best on this one too.

Thank you again and happy 4th!

Hi Treeser, Thanks again for writing back. The trees looks like they were planted at the correct depth. I read the trees and turf article but am not sure what the solution is. What do you suggest for a watering schedule? I can't let the lawn go so long in between waterings or it will suffer. The articals are great, thanks! Wish I had known about them last year when we planned all this out. http://www.arboristsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=296604#
Wink

I can't believe you cut down beautiful liquidambars! They are like gold out here. So pretty in the fall. I have a neighbor with one in her yard that is probably 30 feet tall and amazing! Same conditions as ours so I'm encouraged that this will all work out eventually.

Thanks again and happy independence day!

Are you using a weedeater to trim the grass around the trunk? If so, you may be damaging the thin bark. Better to remove the grass in a 3 or 4 foot diameter circle and replace with mulch.

aS Trees and Turgf states, you need to plan for both. A short but frequent watering regime is great for grass, but it trains a shallow root system for a tree. At the same time, your barrier is trying to train a deep root system.

See the problem?

You MUST remove the turf near your trunk and Find the Flare. Until then, we're wasting time here.

The tree is planted too deep, period. Even if it's just had its root ball covered with sod, its still too deep. My bet is that if you pull back the sod, you still will not find a root flare. I'll further bet that if you dig down 6 to 8 inches, you still won't find one.

Anaerobic soils mean that the soil oxygen levels are very low, almost none. This can have a severe impact on root shoot development as well as "normal" soil biology for this particular tree there must be a balance between soil biology and chemistry. Once one gets thrown out of balance the other can be greatly affected and i think that what has happened with your trees. Along with the recomendations above, as far as trying to dry the soil out further down without disturbing the soil too much i would say to install more root wells and backfill them with a mix of light fertilizer and infeild dressing (calcinated clay). This might make holes in your lawn, so if you decide to do it use a bulb cutter to cut a patch of sod, drill out the soil (we use an air spade) and place the root well in, backfill with the mix and replace the patch of sod. Done right it looks like nothing happened at all.

Ok, here's what I have learned from all your wonderful advice:
1. Remove support stakes to encourage proper trunk girth.
2. Focus on less frequent watering but at a longer duration at each interval to get deeper than the top few inches of soil and down to the roots where it is needed. (In addition to the deep watering system.)
3. Consider further aeration of the roots to eliminate the possibility of anaerobic soils.
4. Remove sod from below the trees and dig out some of the soil until I find the flare. Add mulch to the surrounding area with care not to have mulch touching the trunk.
5. Contact a certified arborist to assess the situation in person. (I have done this and am waiting on a call back.)

Does it sound like I have things down correctly? Is there anything else that should be considered?

Treeser, please do not feel as though you're wasting time here. I very much appreciate your advice. My question regarding what your suggestion was on the watering schedule pertained to how many minutes at how many days per week to allow for a compromise between good tree and good lawn care. It appears to be a delicate balance.

Thank you to all!

If you do not get a call back from your certified arborist, contact Ed Brainard or Dot @ Butlers Mill in San Diego. They are a horticultural supply distributor and have been in San Diego since the late 1800's. They will work with you in locating a Certified Arborist that is highly qualified to diagnose your situation. There phone # is 619-263-6181.

Thank you, that was really nice of you to offer that referral.

If I may offer some amendment here,

1. Loosen ties to support stakes to allow some movement and encourage proper trunk girth while preventing movement of roots.
2. Focus on less frequent watering but at a longer duration at each interval to get deeper than the top few inches of soil and down to the roots where it is needed. (In addition to the deep watering system.)
3. Consider further aeration of the rootzone outside the planting hole to eliminate the possibility of anaerobic soils.
4. Remove sod from below the trees and dig out some of the soil until I find the flare. Add mulch to the surrounding area with care not to have mulch touching the trunk.
5. Contact a certified arborist to assess the situation in person. (I have done this and am waiting on a call back.) See www.asca-consultants.org for a local consulting arborist. These folks may have more training in underground tree issues.

"Is there anything else that should be considered?" Look at your contract with the contractor who installed these trees, to determine their responsibilities. Have they been invited back to the site?

'"My question regarding what your suggestion was on the watering schedule pertained to how many minutes at how many days per week to allow for a compromise between good tree and good lawn care. It appears to be a delicate balance." It is, and soil condition is a major factor in this schedule.

excellent, thanks for the corrections. I have a day off tomorrow and plan to take action then. so you think just loosening the ties to the supports will be fine? The trunks seem pretty sturdy so I probably could do without them.

My landscaper has been out to my property and I asked him about the trees. He didn't seem to think there was a problem, and suggested that they may have hit some of the roots when they inserted the aerators which would result in some leaf loss. We're not on the best of terms anymore however, since I'm displeased with how long my job is taking (8 mos. instead of the promised 3). You can bet your boots I'll be all over him though if this turns out to be something he has erred on.