Thread: Saw techniques and cutting/felling safety

Marty, do you bore cut every tree?

Originally Posted by chainsawworld

WACS, GOL AND Pro CUTS are good hands on training coarses. they are 4 days long but worth the time and money. marty

would you happen to have any links to the websites for these
chainsaw courses?

i've found GOL, but not the others

Originally Posted by chainsawworld

i too cut fire lines for brushfires. and teach it to other saw teams. we all use it because it is the safest way to fell a tree. remember, the hinge does all the work to get a tree on the ground. during a brushfire you will have people running around all over the place. knowing where that tree will land is critical. it takes a little more time in the beginning but "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". you send a burning top the wrong way you just helped the fire spread. i am not picked just making a point. marty


and stirring the pot

Do you not use the "two tree lengths" safety rule when falling here as well? People had better not be "running around all over the place", sounds very unproffesional, certainly not running around the fallers. And are you going to answer my question about the backcut always being higher than the undercut? I have to say, the only boring cuts I have ever seen are when the tree is way bigger than the bar and the center of the holding wood is cut from inside the undercut. I bore when I am bucking, so I don't slab out the wood, thats about it.

The hinge does not do all the work to get a tree to the ground.
1) Face provides the initial part of the release,
2) Back-cut - step two of the release,
3) Hinge, if everything is done properly, controls the release - the fall - the direction of fall.

Usually.

Often on the fireline, the trees being dropped are snags.
GOL - Open Face is a moot point in dead or drought timber. Remember a hinge that breaks prior to 90 degrees negatives the control, (theoretically), at the point where it breaks.

Dead snags will have the hinge break commonly around 40-50 degrees. Sometimes earlier. Rotten trees may well have no hinge control whatsoever. Drought trees of any species, (live fuel moistures down to say 110%), will be more brittle than that same species fully green, (live fuel moistures above say 160% minimum).

Spending time making an open face, (Tek9Tim's point), is a waste in large conifers generally. It is a huge safety consideration when dealing with the very dangerous dead and recently weakened by fire trees/snags on the fireline. I have yet to see a photo or appropriate emphasis by GOL training materials on looking up while falling danger trees.
The Open Face is the second hardest of the four face cuts. It apparently requires a lot of concentration. The Block Face w/Snipe, (four cuts and lots of ability needed), is the hardest.

Remember, an unobstructed limb, will fall 50 feet in less than 2 seconds and be going 40 mph when it hits the faller. LOOK UP is golden rule #2 is danger tree falling. (#1 is don't be afraid to say no).

For most people, the conventional undercut is the easiest to accomplish and allows the most vertical situational awareness. I will concede that many Humboldt professional cutters on the west coast are so good at that technique that they can and do look up very well. If you have any photos showing this by GOL - Open face practitioners, please post them.

This photo shows an Open Face Cutter in action. The serious error is not looking up, of course. This photo was not picked out selectively to make this point. The entire batch from this project showed not one single instance of the faller looking up while cutting dead trees with widow makers overhead.

One point I should also make regarding the last photo is the height of the felling cuts and how that makes for unsafe falling.

Note how the faller is cutting at a height where his posture is poor.

Sounds like a parent scolding a grade schooler doesn't it?

Really, it is that basic. He can't look up readily and has the added exposure of an unprotected cervical spine by being bent over.

Felling at this height, failing to look up, not recognizing those problems would result in flunking where I come from.

Originally Posted by smokechase II

One point I should also make regarding the last photo is the height of the felling cuts and how that makes for unsafe falling.

Note how the faller is cutting at a height where his posture is poor.

Sounds like a parent scolding a grade schooler doesn't it?

Really, it is that basic. He can't look up readily and has the added exposure of an unprotected cervical spine by being bent over.

Felling at this height, failing to look up, not recognizing those problems would result in flunking where I come from.

How can you not be bent over when cutting stumps low as possible??

unless, your kneeling i see no other way but to bend down...

Originally Posted by smokechase II

1)


.

. ).

. LOOK UP is golden rule #2 is danger tree falling. (#1 is don't be afraid to say no).

. If you have any photos showing this by GOL - Open face practitioners, please post them.

This photo shows an Open Face Cutter in action. The serious error is not looking up, of course. This photo was not picked out selectively to make this point. The entire batch from this project showed not one single instance of the faller looking up while cutting dead trees with widow makers overhead.

I know there are at least several guys on here that have taken the GOL training. Do they not stress and stress again looking up?
I would like to take the courses and know that I would learn something, but it is hard to believe that this part of training is not beaten into everyones head.

Originally Posted by chainsawworld

i too cut fire lines for brushfires. and teach it to other saw teams. we all use it because it is the safest way to fell a tree. remember, the hinge does all the work to get a tree on the ground. during a brushfire you will have people running around all over the place. knowing where that tree will land is critical. it takes a little more time in the beginning but "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". you send a burning top the wrong way you just helped the fire spread. i am not picked just making a point. marty


and stirring the pot

There's a HUGE difference between fires on the east coast and the fires on west coast. Bigger timber, larger fires, more extreme fire behavior. There is a course that the National Wildfire Coordination Group has in the system that all fireline sawyers must go through before being certified, S-212 Wildland Fire Chainsaws. I don't know what kind of knuckleheads you're on fires with, but in seven years working with professional fire crews, I have not once had someone walk into my safety circle while felling a tree. Radios and swampers help a lot.

And a huge hell yeah to go along with Smokechase's posts.

Blis: if a tree's dead or on fire, why does it need to be cut low?

Blis:
Go to one knee. This is for 'safe' trees. Your back it still vertical. Does requiure some acquired skill but you can look up except when in tree wells from snow etc.

To generalize:
1) Solid green tree, no observed hazards. Cut low. Most commercial cutters will have tree after tree like this. Particularly in second growth stands. I suspect that in Finland, to some degree, there are not the numerous snags that we have in our 'unhealthy forests' of the Western US.
2) Hazard tree, something has your attention. Rot, loose limbs, dead top, going to brush against neighboring trees etc. Cut at a comfortable height to look up and escape as cutting low also means slower escape.

There is a lot I don't know about falling.
But I'm going to say that I do know a fair bit about danger trees.
38 fire seasons.

There are also times where falling by chain saw is not an option.

The only GOL - Open Face materials I am privy to are Tim Ard's eBook and what is on the net. Often that internet stuff is from associated groups that have adapted to GOL techniques.

I've asked before. Can anyone put forth some quotes from the GOL world here?

1) Looking up throughout the felling of danger trees is needed.
2) Emphasis on becoming ambidextrous so that the danger side of some trees can be avoided. Provided a long bar is available.

John, I think a good portion of this comes from its Scandinavian roots.
Green second growth and not many snags means a few things.

Smaller trees, solid timber and less hazards.

It is logical that they would have a reduced emphasis on looking up, quicker escapes, cutting from either side and longer bars.
It is not logical that what works in any one part of the world should be mandated elsewhere.

Tonight I'll go through Tim Ard’s eBook. It’s on CD and easy to search and I'll post what he has.

Excellent posts Smokechase. The B.C. fallers and buckers manual (written by westcoast fallers and buckers) is pretty clear on snags or other danger trees. With snags you must 1) use a saw thats bar is bigger than the tree 2) put in the cuts at a hieght comfortable to you, so you can easily look up 3) only wedge it if you have to and only then if you determine it can take it 4) use a deep undercut 1/2 of the tree, on short fat snags, over 1/2. All the other rules apply as well, escape paths, standing in the right spot, etc.

To add to this...And there will probably be a hornets nest afterwards....GOL focuses on harvesting valuable trees. The emphasis is on safety, correct method, and efficiency. The GOL classes that I took were taught by Soren Eriksson and took place on Mead/Westvaco property in southern Ohio. During the classes I remember that a good deal of emphasis was place on taking inventory of the top, looking for dead or loose braches and other hazards. During felling however, Soren believed it was not a good idea to look up to much. His theory was that if a branch came out of the tree that he wanted it to land square on the top of the hardhat, and not in his face. I know the PNW guys are not going to agree with most of what the GOL program has to offer. The timber that GOL is geared towards is Eastern hardwoods and softwoods, not the large softwoods of the PNW. GOL techniques have served me well, and for those with limited experience working in the woods I think it is time and money well spent.

Originally Posted by Tzed250

During felling however, Soren believed it was not a good idea to look up to much.

.

.

Originally Posted by tek9tim

Blis: if a tree's dead or on fire, why does it need to be cut low?

Point taken, was thinking only about green wood

Originally Posted by smokechase II

Blis:
Go to one knee. This is for 'safe' trees. Your back it still vertical. Does requiure some acquired skill but you can look up except when in tree wells from snow etc.

To generalize:
1) Solid green tree, no observed hazards. Cut low. Most commercial cutters will have tree after tree like this. Particularly in second growth stands. I suspect that in Finland, to some degree, there are not the numerous snags that we have in our 'unhealthy forests' of the Western US.
......

True that, over here 99.9% of what we cut is green wood, no dead trees standing around or such things, propably the reason why no one here thinks 'bout widow makers and such... But as said, there isnt dead trees or trees that have have loose limbs and such, expect after storms there may be few....




That pic shows how our forests are, that is "young" forest, time for first thinning (we usually clear the area with clearing saw first, then 1-3 thinnings and then cut all wood then the circle begins again)... Hardly anything falling to watch for (expect snow)...