whadja do today?

**treevet** · 01-01-2011, 06:34 AM

[QUOTE=John Paul Sanborn;2678590]

I never claimed to be doing so, I'm just saying that the research has moved on since Shigo coined the phrase.

Where has the research moved on? For the most part the song line "the day the music died" fits here. Sure some are doing some research but his goal in life was to disseminate complex data and its meanings to the scientific layman....the arborist. Others, Gillman, Schwarz, Matthack (sp?), etc., either just postulate on subjects without scientific data or emit such complex data, the arborist reads through it while thinking about new bucket trucks, climbing hitches or what they are going to have for lunch.
[QUOTE]

rant-off Alex and the Shigonuts and games of "Shigo Says" send me into a tizzy

That is the basis of your perpetual chastising of Shigo and those who study him isn't it? You are likely somehow diminished by those who quote someone who generated massive amounts of peer reviewed data and those who study him at depth and you would rather conjecture with subjects that don't send you into a "tizzy" like very uncomplicated subjects such as sgr's (which Shigo dealt with in depth) and ignore or opt to not spend the money to buy the books where he takes you into a journey of the complex and difficult to understand (while doing all he can to get you to understand).

The "Shigonuts?" lol. Who is more quotable? Someone who takes pride in mis spelling words without any remorse reveals why the Shigo material and those who quote it threatens them.....er I mean sends them into a "tizzy".

"learn until it hurts" Shigo

**jefflovstrom** · 01-01-2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by tree MDS

Sorry to hear that Jeff.

His son told me Rob had a heart attack while hooking up his trailor. 53 years old, non-smoker, healthy, .... last I talked to him he was excited about ITCC coming up soon.
Jeff

**treevet** · 01-01-2011, 07:28 AM

Sorry to hear you lost your friend Jeff.

**Del_** · 01-01-2011, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by jefflovstrom

Attachment 166681Some of you may remember Rob (Robdog). He passed away yesterday. RIP, my freind.
Jeff

I remember Robdog. Sorry to hear he passed away.

**John Paul Sanborn** · 01-01-2011, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by treevet

The "Shigonuts?" lol. Who is more quotable? Someone who takes pride in mis spelling words without any remorse reveals why the Shigo material and those who quote it threatens them.....er I mean sends them into a "tizzy".

"learn until it hurts" Shigo

Glad I could make you laugh. It seems that you treat Shigo as the end of the road, Gilman, Johnson, Haur, and many others I have read have built on what Shigo started. I do not discount him, or people who idolize him, it is just that some can be very obtuse when it comes to current state of science. From what i have read of him (and i have read most of his books and many papers more then once) he would agree with the quote "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" J.M. Keynes

Another Shigonut axiom is that minor elements are not nutrients, I recall an instance when one was correcting researchers on using this term commonly accepted throughout plant science. it did not go over very well...

**treevet** · 01-01-2011, 03:53 PM

[QUOTE=John Paul Sanborn;2679729]

From what i have read of him (and i have read most of his books and many papers more then once) he would agree with the quote "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" J.M. Keynes

What Shigo books do you own? What facts have changed in your opinion? Many resent Shigo because they picture this huge presence and ego accompanying this bigger than life person. Not so. Don't be so intimidated.

Another Shigonut axiom is that minor elements are not nutrients, I recall an instance when one was correcting researchers on using this term commonly accepted throughout plant science. it did not go over very well...

Change is difficult to accept. He has caused massive change in the profession to the point that his life was threatened often in his career and we were not allowed to record his seminars because of it.

Carbohydrate is tree food. The 13 essential elements in the soil do not have the energy bonds that can be used by living things. The 13 soil elements should be called elements. A nutrient is the combination of an energy source with an essential element that does not yield energy.

Is this what we are referring to?

I think it is offensive for you to refer to Shigo students as Shigonuts. What if people started referring to you as a big goofball?

**John Paul Sanborn** · 01-01-2011, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by treevet

What if people started referring to you as a big goofball?

They don't already?

His books, New Biology, Pruning, The picture book of his dissections...

I had ModArb, but loaned it out a number of years ago.

I have Harris, P.P. Pirrone ( the first tree book I read, it was at the County Library. I bought it shortly after Amazon opened up)

The 13 essential elements in the soil do not have the energy bonds that can be used by living things. The 13 soil elements should be called elements. A nutrient is the combination of an energy source with an essential element that does not yield energy.

This is just flat out wrong, you cannot have definitions separate from other life science disciplines. Go to any dictionary and a nutrient is "any substance that provides sustenance for an organism."

Most of the elements in C Hopkins CaFe are not available in their elemental form, such as Fe has been shown to work better when chelated as Feric Amonium Citrate, especially with the white sub-genus of oak.

If elements were not nutrients, the we would not talk of the different "nutrient cycles" in the environment, carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle.....

I understand the reasoning for the argument against "plant food" because light is the true "plant food", the source of energy for all life on earth, except for a few odd cyano-bacteria. Too many people try to sell NPK fert as "tree food" without understanding the why's and wherfore's of the development of "fertilizer"...

Ooops, I almost fell into my anti-NPK rant. :angryrant:

I have a great deal of respect for Shigo, and have no problem with the idea of a person being a student of his teachings. I do have a problem when the study leads to a dogmatic adherence to those teachings, as I would with any other school of thought.

Others, Gillman, Schwarz, Matthack (sp?), etc., either just postulate on subjects without scientific data or emit such complex data,

Hmmm, the ad hominem ( arguing on the failings of the defendant..) I have to agree that they are not as influential, mostly because they have not been working as long. I think some of Gillman's work is very readable FWIW, but I have to agree with you on ol' Claus; he is either too technical, or condescendingly oversimplified.

**treeseer** · 01-01-2011, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by treevet

Where has the research moved on? For the most part the song line "the day the music died" fits here. Sure some are doing some research but his goal in life was to disseminate complex data and its meanings to the scientific layman....the arborist. Others, Gillman, Schwarz, Matthack (sp?), etc., either just postulate on subjects without scientific data or emit such complex data, the arborist reads through it while thinking about new bucket trucks, climbing hitches or what they are going to have for lunch.

That would not just be the author's fault, but the readers'. Not only did you misspell all 3 names, but to say that the first 2 do not deliver data with relevant conclusions that the arborist can use is NOT supported by their works. True their writing is not as pithy and punchy as Alex's was, but they or at least the first two are at least as precise, and their conclusions should and do lead directly to better tree care.

A New Tree Biology is often the first book off the shelf when I'm researching something, but it is never the last. Buddy Holly's music was great, but it has been built on.

... very uncomplicated subjects such as sgr's (which Shigo dealt with in depth)

What did I miss? My copy of ANTB page 206 shows an sgr that you or I could and should sever in a heartbeat with loppers, but he said to leave those alone. Where is the depth in that? If the topic is uncomplicated, are you ready to tell folks which sgrs should be cut and where and when?

He did no research on this; not directly tied to his job, and his advice on this and some other stuff has been proven wrong, like the pic #74 in pithypoints. That does not diminish his greatness, it just shows what happens with time. See Pithy Point #207.

**treevet** · 01-01-2011, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by John Paul Sanborn

I do have a problem when the study leads to a dogmatic adherence to those teachings, as I would with any other school of thought.

.

I think if one was to take a poll in regards to the champion in the fight against dogma in the world of arboriculture one would find Dr. Shigo an enthusiastic and clear winner and not Mr. JP Sanborn.

**treevet** · 01-01-2011, 09:15 PM

[QUOTE=treeseer;2680474]

Not only did you misspell all 3 names

Gilman, Mattheck, Schwarze (I will be watching your suspect spelling as well lol)

What did I miss? My copy of ANTB page 206 shows an sgr that you or I could and should sever in a heartbeat with loppers, but he said to leave those alone. Where is the depth in that? If the topic is uncomplicated, are you ready to tell folks which sgrs should be cut and where and when?
.

That picture could be misleading with nothing to give perspective. That could be a 5' dbh. The message here is likely that with mature trees the trade off (in longevity) may be in favor of leaving the large (established) sgr on an over mature tree as it cannot stand the loss of live tissue (conductive and storage) that a young dynamic tree can.

You 2 knuckleheads are really stretching it to nitpick piddling stuff on the Father of Modern Arboriculture aren't you?

**jefflovstrom** · 01-01-2011, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by treevet

I think if one was to take a poll in regards to the champion in the fight against dogma in the world of arboriculture one would find Dr. Shigo an enthusiastic and clear winner and not Mr. JP Sanborn.

He spit a little when he preached, I remember, I was in the first row.
Jeff

**sgreanbeans** · 01-02-2011, 04:20 AM

I love this!
This is why I am here, when you guys start arguing and not about who has better junk, but about deep,deep DEEP stuff, we all can do nothing but learn.
Its funny, sometimes I have to get out my little arbor word dictionary to follow! Glad I bought that little book!

to all of you
Now, lets get back at it!

**sgreanbeans** · 01-02-2011, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by jefflovstrom

Attachment 166681Some of you may remember Rob (Robdog). He passed away yesterday. RIP, my freind.
Jeff

Sorry brotha

**treevet** · 01-02-2011, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by jefflovstrom

He spit a little when he preached, I remember, I was in the first row.
Jeff

Prob just meant to gob on you for general reasons.

Could you blame him?

**treeseer** · 01-02-2011, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by treevet

That picture could be misleading with nothing to give perspective. That could be a 5' dbh.

NO misleading possible, as the proportions, and the problem, are the same whether the tree is 5' dbh or 5". The fact is, he did not dig and see, but instead violated his own dictum #867, and gave unqualified advice. Give it up, Dave. The more you try to shove his crown down our throats, the more his nakedness will be revealed.

The message here is *likely* that with mature trees the trade off (in longevity) *may be* in favor of leaving the large (established) sgr on an over mature tree as it cannot stand the loss of live tissue (conductive and storage) that a young dynamic tree can.

Stating an obvious basic difference (with two *qualifiers* to cover your aspirations for his accuracy) does not undo the original ERROR

You 2 knuckleheads are really stretching it to nitpick piddling stuff on the Father of Modern Arboriculture aren't you?

Nothing piddling about telling people not to prune big sgr's--they are more harmful than small ones, duh! Costello went way beyond Shigo on sgr's, as Gilman is doing with with pruning, Schwarze with decay, etc. In 1986 Alex may have been the Father, but now he's the grandfather. Still a revered elder who MUST

be read to understand tree care imo, but we have uncles and aunts and other fathers and mothers now carrying that torch and showing the way.

He'd be gyrating in his grave if he heard your tunnelvisioned admiration, and your disregard for modern work. If you drop the hero worship and open your eyes to research in 2011--your misspelling, while not a big deal in itself, belies your lack of familiarity with those authors and their work--, you will see the potential of modern arboriculture. If not, you're wrapped up in a time warp that does not do him or you proud.

O and Jeff I did not know Rob but dam he was young to just drop like that. Gotta cherish every day; each could be our last!