Thread: Workman's Comp Bull ####

Originally Posted by ATH

WC should be the least of your worries if you are calling employees subcontractors. The IRS has a lot to say about classification of workers...
Back payroll taxes and FICA have put more than one company out of business when they thought they were using independent contractors.

I don't have employee subs , but know some guys who do it that way , there is one guy who gets paid as a sub and somehow he will distribute the money to the men ... I have employees nothing shady here ...

I am going to be calling my insurance man tuesday to check on wc. I was wondering if you can get a discounted rate by having mandatory safety meetings. I am thinking its around 19% in Iowa.

Originally Posted by treeman75

I am going to be calling my insurance man tuesday to check on wc. I was wondering if you can get a discounted rate by having mandatory safety meetings. I am thinking its around 19% in Iowa.

It's not mandatory and it's really up to the underwriter. The more safety controls you have in place, the more likely the underwriter is to give you discounts though.
PS: make sure the safety meetings document who was there, what was covered, date and sign out sheets.

Sucks to be a legit company in Calif. But its no garden party being an employee either out here. The Pay scale sucks, mostly due to the high rate o WC.
I'll sit home and watch t.v. before I work for less then 17.00 an hour. I work under the table sometimes for Cash, but then I worry what if I was seriously injured on the job? I am an old school kind of guy. I would never file a claim unless it was really serious, in that case I would be glade for WC. That is what it suppose to be for.
I have known people who hurt them self's playing soccer or some other activity away from work and wait tell they get to work and act like it happened there. The mentality being let my employer pay for my folly. That is stealing same as if you came in with a gun and robbed your employer. If such claims were investigated and prosecuted to the fullest, and those who do it given a stiff prison sentence, rates would go down, and the pay scale would go up I beleave. As it is now at lest in Calif, your chances of getting caught are nearly zero.
I worked for companys who have done the following to off set the high cost of WC. I'm not suggesting any one do this, I'm just saying,
Cash for all over time off the books, bought a truck off one guy and he deducted the payments off the top of what I was owed off the book. One pay scale for climbing, one for when I was out of the tree(hated that) One guy had WC but wouldn't put you on the books unless there was an accident. Then if you were hurt that was your first day. That same guy was blackmailed by a employee for 10,000.00 for an injury the employee got playing ice hockey. We knew he was lying, but he held all the cards(it a 10,000. per employee fine I think for not having WC)
I am currently working on my contractors lic. so my employers won't have to pay WC, but then I have to offset my pay scale to cover my ins.
50% + WC here in Calif. hurts every one but the ins. companys. Giving dishonest employees a free rains to rip off their employers is the problem I believe, and making examples out of rip offs the solution I think. Put the fear of God in those who
feel the need to rip off their employers. WC in theory is great. I like knowing it's there if I am injured and need serous medical attention while hurt on the job. If I was hurt and could never work again, I would be thankful for WC. But it seems it has gotten frivolous and a burden, hurting legit guys who pay it, making a uneven playing field against those who don't, and trickling down to the honest workers in reduce pay.








b

The extra half of OT is supposed to be subtracted from the totals anyways here? If you can keep exact records changing from one category to the next from job to job is how to save money.

50%????!!!! That would suck.

Im so glad that I found this forum to vent on. I hate the doc nothing terrifies me more. Id rather stitch myself then ever show up in a hospital. I've been blessed with having no accidents that needed medical attention. Chainsaw rash, open wounds, hurt neck/back all nursed at home with speedy recovery. Now I go 1 time because of spinal pain in my neck (after a day of crane removals) and its the end of the world. Happened on friday and I let the payroll service know on Monday. OH $HIT NOW IM GOING TO BE FIRED for not notifying them in 24hrs. I told my boss and the other forman that day. My boss is denying my claim and theirs a investigation. WTF. He pays W.C. plus regular medical. They both said no. Now the hospital wants $. KAISER insurance wants me in rehab. I've worked 12-14hrs a day since. Im animal been this way since I was 20.

What service I got was .....go home take an aspirin. Stupid educated idiot. I told him I don't do drugs but thanks for thinking of me. Being I am in the $&%*en E.R. come on saw bones no xray?

Sat in there naked with a dress on for 4 hrs to hear that. Id rather go to Guatanomo with my dog leash. At least id be left with a little pride. Hawaii can be shut a turd world country sometimes.`

Originally Posted by beastmaster

Sucks to be a legit company in Calif. But its no garden party being an employee either out here. The Pay scale sucks, mostly due to the high rate o WC.
I'll sit home and watch t.v. before I work for less then 17.00 an hour. I work under the table sometimes for Cash, but then I worry what if I was seriously injured on the job? I am an old school kind of guy. I would never file a claim unless it was really serious, in that case I would be glade for WC. That is what it suppose to be for.
I have known people who hurt them self's playing soccer or some other activity away from work and wait tell they get to work and act like it happened there. The mentality being let my employer pay for my folly. That is stealing same as if you came in with a gun and robbed your employer. If such claims were investigated and prosecuted to the fullest, and those who do it given a stiff prison sentence, rates would go down, and the pay scale would go up I beleave. As it is now at lest in Calif, your chances of getting caught are nearly zero.
I worked for companys who have done the following to off set the high cost of WC. I'm not suggesting any one do this, I'm just saying,
Cash for all over time off the books, bought a truck off one guy and he deducted the payments off the top of what I was owed off the book. One pay scale for climbing, one for when I was out of the tree(hated that) One guy had WC but wouldn't put you on the books unless there was an accident. Then if you were hurt that was your first day. That same guy was blackmailed by a employee for 10,000.00 for an injury the employee got playing ice hockey. We knew he was lying, but he held all the cards(it a 10,000. per employee fine I think for not having WC)
I am currently working on my contractors lic. so my employers won't have to pay WC, but then I have to offset my pay scale to cover my ins.
50% + WC here in Calif. hurts every one but the ins. companys. Giving dishonest employees a free rains to rip off their employers is the problem I believe, and making examples out of rip offs the solution I think. Put the fear of God in those who
feel the need to rip off their employers. WC in theory is great. I like knowing it's there if I am injured and need serous medical attention while hurt on the job. If I was hurt and could never work again, I would be thankful for WC. But it seems it has gotten frivolous and a burden, hurting legit guys who pay it, making a uneven playing field against those who don't, and trickling down to the honest workers in reduce pay.








b

A simple claim in CA cost the ins company 2-3 times more than most other states. Everyone gets an attorney, lots of cheating employers/employees and last time I checked there was no cap on attorneys fees. If CA want to lower rates, there are plenty of things they can do. Arkansas has a great comp system and some of the best rates in the nation.

Originally Posted by ATH

WC should be the least of your worries if you are calling employees subcontractors. The IRS has a lot to say about classification of workers...
Back payroll taxes and FICA have put more than one company out of business when they thought they were using independent contractors.

Trying to call people sub contractors is to risky. Your better off just paying up or you try to run black ops and face jail time. Is it really worth being incarcerated?

If you have a family you really have to think about it. it cost me close to 10-15 grand a year for comp depending on how much i pay in wages. i will gladly pay it to stay out of prison.

If you are operating with out be aware of a few things. Your home can be taken, You can be put in prison. those are the two biggest of a long list of bad things that can happen to you. your family could wind up on the street because someone wanted to save $$.

If someone gets hurt and you don't have it your personal assets can be sought after.

"Subcontractors" is one of the reasons that the worker's comp agency comes to your office and audits. They always ask you for your subcontractor payments, and then they insist on seeing the certificates of insurance from your subs that protect them from WC claims.

If your "sub" employee does not have a certificate of insurance on file in your office, you will pay workers comp on the value of the payments that you made to them. In some cases, this will cost you more than if you had just listed them as an employee.

Payroll cheats, payroll classification errors, and subcontractor payments: these are the three big things that a WC audit looks for.

Originally Posted by mattfr12

If you have a family you really have to think about it. it cost me close to 10-15 grand a year for comp depending on how much i pay in wages. i will gladly pay it to stay out of prison..

Only 10-15k?? I have a really small co. and run alot of lawn and landscape category comp and still pay almost $10k/year and I've got great rates. That doesn't even include me, I've got myself excluded. You're working 6-7 days a week doing tree work with all that eqpt. and only paying $10-15K?

Originally Posted by Toddppm

Only 10-15k?? I have a really small co. and run alot of lawn and landscape category comp and still pay almost $10k/year and I've got great rates. That doesn't even include me, I've got myself excluded. You're working 6-7 days a week doing tree work with all that eqpt. and only paying $10-15K?

yes once you have had comp for so many years your rates go down. you can leave the state and go to an underwriter the first few years are the worst. you can even go as far as joining a union if needed. their are a lot of options you can look into. i have an accountant that points out areas like this where i could save money or is a smarter move.

a tree climber for me can be anywhere from 4-6k a year saying he makes 50k or less. their is only one other climber besides myself. and me being an LLC means i can't buy comp for myself. i have to use an outsource such as Aflac.

through the state the rates where 3k for every 20k in wages. so 40k a year is 6k in comp.
a ground guy is 1.5k for every 20k through and underwriter we are at around 900$ per 20k

but have never had a claim in 6 years. knock on wood. and have 6-8 employees at any given time excluding myself. during the winter we run 2 crews of 3. summer 2 crews of 4. next summer if the resources are available we are gonna try to bump up to 4 crews of 3.

the rates vary greatly state to state some states do not allow underwriters.

Matt,

The laws in Pa have changed, now you can cover yourself with workers comp. I just declined it when i renewed my policy

Originally Posted by 2treeornot2tree

Matt,

The laws in Pa have changed, now you can cover yourself with workers comp. I just declined it when i renewed my policy

Wow thats kind of nice ill have to look at what is cheaper aflac hits the wallet kind of hard.

I hear owners cry about W.C. being expensive and it is but when I bring in between $1,700-2,400 everyday for years and years how is that not compensating for it. Sitting in your office or big car.....drinking coffee and smokin big cigars. You owners really think your big shots when you start doing paperwork. This is what I see. I see former climbers either have business ethics and save $ or have a windfall of some sort and get the company going. Then all the ground work they layed while working hard pays off with good clientele. Then you screw the other climbers and crew by only working when you feel like it. Hit a couple of gravey jobs 2-3 times a week, pull in some quick cash, pay the guys some chump change, and then play with your kids the rest of the week. Rare to find an owner who busts it like a foreman. Even then they cry about operating cost. All while riding around in a new truck with a new wife in her new car, that's parked in the new garage. They don't spen much time there because of so much vacationing. Be really big or be really small I don't care pay me or don't get into it at all. Famouse owner words upon hire.....I know your worth this but I can only pay you this ....

They need an option for employees to have their own insurance at work. Then I can tell the boss I pay all my bennies you just pay me my worth.

Such B.S. all I want to do is cut trees. One of the reasons I picked this profession was the low oversight now I might as well be an electrician.

so what is a top rate climber worth then?

25 an hour? 30? Salary? Percentage?

I think most climbers think they are worth more than they are. Many folks get blinded into thinking that climbing the tree is the only part of this business. I have one climber like that. I pay everyone ten percent commision if they sell a job, even if they do it on my time. Got this one guy who is always handing me scribbled napkins and #### with his "estimate" thinking he should get commission for that...... that ain't selling a job.

Same dude is always taking free firewood, borrowing a truck, showing up fifteen minutes late..... then has the ####ing nerve to tell me he deserves a raise. Guy is completely blinded.... thinks he does the whole job himself and should get paid as such, thinks I am bankrolling everyday when he busts his ass.... doesn't realize the outside costs and work that goes into selling and completing a job smoothly EVERY DAY, he thinks making a grand in a day is a good day.....


Either way though, I see your point. Most top rate climbers probably don't make what they are truly worth cuz there aren't many companies efficient enough to get the volume out of em that they need. When I worked for other people the first thing I did was buy my own insurance and climbing saw. I almost always got paid on percentage as a sub as well. Or a daily rate which was high, I didn't want people hiring me unless they really needed me and were gonna make enough money to pay me what I am worth. Whenever I do a job as a sub I always showed up and handed my insurance card to the boss and let him now if #### gets ####ed up from in the tree it is on me. I averaged 350-500 a day as a sub, I felt like I was getting paid what I was worth.

Part of the reason owners make the big bucks is because they assume all the risk. Something gets ####ed or job goes long it comes out of their pockets. Assume some of that risk and you should be paid accordingly.... want to be on the clock all day and not worry about what happens when you crush a fence or gutter all while using someone else's saws and ropes..... you get paid accordingly, doesn't matter how good you are.