Judge overturns State/Cal Fire findings

[slowp]

I only know about the FS. The main beef is w/in the 4x4 community around here...have skills and tools but cannot use them w/o a certificate. This applies to pre-opening of trails or 'official' work days where the FS has something to do with putting it together. Some clubs that sponsor trails are stuck with the same rules as well. If I'm on an open trail and a tree is down...it goes away If I lived anywhere near where they do the certifications I'd probably go but its a 2hr drive for me to any of them. I'm assuming it has something to do with liability.

You are not officially volunteering when you cut out the occasional tree. Quite a bit of the motorized trails around here are opened up by the first rider in the spring. The minute you take part in an organized, sanctioned work day, the certification requirement kicks in. I've driven 3 hours one way to go to volunteer training and pulled a trailer to stay in. Most everywhere is at least 2 hours from here.

 

[slowp]

http://www.pcta.org/volunteer/trail-skills-college/saw-training/

 

[BeatCJ]

Agreed Ms. Patty and BeatCJ which is why I generally don't like posting hearsay, and I'm sorry I posted this without knowing the "real"truth.

Joe, much of what you posted is true, but without context and details, not "truth". I won't say more here.

I don't think posting stuff like that as part of a web discussion is wrong. I think people that make decisions based only what they read on the Intardweb are foolish, so everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and I don't get upset when I see different ideas, thoughts or statements than what I understand. I think the free flow of conversation is probably more important than making everything follow rules like you might see in court testimony.

"The advice received on the Internet is worth exactly what you paid for it."

 

[Gologit]

I have heard that a LARGE Eastern Wa. grower offered to help the state with some of their equipment during the Carlton Complex fire( The largest in the history of the state). These guys have D7-9 size Cats. The state turned them down because they weren't certified/qualified. I have no proof, but that was the word on the street.

Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.

 

[slowp]

Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.

And that's what usually gets done when a fire breaks out. I've felt kind of stupid, having to check on shovels and fire tools when there is a cat skidding in logs. Like they're going to park the cat and grab a shovel and dig a hand line? ......Right.

What happens around here is to heck with the fire, get the yarder de rigged and out of harm's way unless the insurance money is more desirable.

 

[Gologit]

Yup. Given a choice between a shovel and a D-6 I think I know which one I'd choose.
One year I had to buy all new shovels because the handles on the old ones had dried up from sitting in the fire box and the heads fell off when the inspector pulled them out. He didn't like my idea of just letting them soak in the creek or the water truck until they expanded and fit better. He was a good guy though and always inspected us on Friday afternoons so if he had to shut us down we didn't lose much time.

 

[SliverPicker]

When a trail on federal land needs cleared around here it just mysteriously gets done.

 

[BeatCJ]

Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.

Well, most of the equipment and fallers are hired from local contractors, not agency equipment. Different agencies, different rules. Feds use equipment that has been signed up, but the process to get on the dispatch list is ongoing. DNR has the ability to hire the guy across the street, but they are more likely to do that if they know you (unless you don't get along with them). I'm pretty sure, listening to them on the radio, they do have a list too, but it's on a regional basis.

I was told by one of our local guys that since I'm already an Engine Boss and Crew Boss,I should get qualified as a Falling Boss, and it was described as someone to do the fire line safety stuff for fallers, not to know ANYTHING about falling itself. Great, drive around in a pickup with a wickerbill hat. I'll pass, I spend enough time as a supervisor now.

 

[2dogs]

Well, most of the equipment and fallers are hired from local contractors, not agency equipment. Different agencies, different rules. Feds use equipment that has been signed up, but the process to get on the dispatch list is ongoing. DNR has the ability to hire the guy across the street, but they are more likely to do that if they know you (unless you don't get along with them). I'm pretty sure, listening to them on the radio, they do have a list too, but it's on a regional basis.

I was told by one of our local guys that since I'm already an Engine Boss and Crew Boss,I should get qualified as a Falling Boss, and it was described as someone to do the fire line safety stuff for fallers, not to know ANYTHING about falling itself. Great, drive around in a pickup with a wickerbill hat. I'll pass, I spend enough time as a supervisor now.

There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.

 

[slowp]

When a trail on federal land needs cleared around here it just mysteriously gets done.

Quite a few do here. I've done a bit of stealth work along with The Used Dog. I'll even pack a small handsaw sometimes when going for a little hike.

It was in the dark ages when I went on fires, but on one, I went as an engine slug and we worked with a falling crew. The falling boss was no where near a pickup and was busy packing some of the gear, helping drive in wedges sometimes, and keeping an eye on things.

 

[Gologit]

There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.

Yup. You have to be able to trust your falling boss. If they've never been a faller I don't think I'd want them making decisions that affect me.

 

[BeatCJ]

There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.

Yup, I get that. I didn't mean to offend, I said the same thing to the Falling Boss that suggested I should do it, because we are short in my area. He laughed at me, as intended. But he knows me, we work together on a somewhat regular basis.

I just looked at the tasks required for me to become a Felling Boss. None require much knowledge of actual felling to get checked off, "Ensure Inspection, Coordinate Action, Communicate with other crews". I'm not saying that I agree with what is in the Taskbook, but for NWCG, Felling Boss is a fireline supervisor, not a faller.

 

[dhskier2]

I thought felong boss (FELB) was taken out of circulation as a single resource position by NWCG? I suppose they could still have the position, just no longer at a "single resource" qual'd level?

 

[madhatte]

Funny you should ask that, as I'm wondering the same. I have all of the tasks completed for FELB and nobody will sign it off for my Single Resource qual, even though I have CRWB, ENGB, DOZB, and FIRB on it and I am also carrying FALB. I think it's a liability thing, but I'm not sure.

 

[dhskier2]

Funny you should ask that, as I'm wondering the same. I have all of the tasks completed for FELB and nobody will sign it off for my Single Resource qual, even though I have CRWB, ENGB, DOZB, and FIRB on it and I am also carrying FALB. I think it's a liability thing, but I'm not sure.

I don't know the answer to this. The most recent single resource task book I fine is dated 2012, and FELB is there. I heard pre-2012 that it was no longer a single resource... so I don't know what the deal is.
Liability concern makes the most sense to me for no one signing of on it. Which is silly. A structured system of accreditation is in place, and you've done you've done your due diligence... yet someone is too nervous to formally acknowledge it.

 

[dhskier2]

It's CYA at its finest

 

[madhatte]

That's the name of the game, sadly.

 

[BeatCJ]

It's still listed in the October 2014 version of PMS310-1: http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/docs/pms310-1.pdf Page 77

I have heard of local agencies not keeping other qualifications of Red Cards for liability reasons, too.

 

[madhatte]

It's frustrating, especially when I end up IC on a fire where I don't have the resources I need and have to adjust the plan accordingly. I hate having to accept one escape to prevent another on account of absent resources.

 

[2dogs]

It's CYA at its finest

Brilliant observation. It is people like you that keep me away from AS. Can we get this expert kicked out of F&L?