Self-loader, knuckleboom, whatever the heck they are called on trailer?

[KiwiBro]

Hi All,

Have been looking into log trailers to tow behind a tractor. With knuckleboom and grapple to self-load the logs. But the ones I see look flimsy. They don't have much lift capacity.

The truck self-loaders look much stronger.

Essentially, I have some ideas but not the experience or wisdom to know if they should be dropped in favour of plan B. What I'm thinking of is:

• braked tandem axle trailer
• axles slide on a central, backbone/spine beam so can take some weight off tractor rear end if need be and generally have more control over the weight distributions. Looking like the tractor will only safely handle about 5-6000Lbs of drawbar weight. Maybe more but I need to have it confirmed and preferably test it out myself.
  
• a truck self-loader mounted to the trailer with self-contained, tractor PTO powered hydraulics if need be (I'm thinking the 10 gpm tractor implement hydraulic flow rate will not be enough?)

This will be used not just for loading logs at a landing and forwarding but to load log trucks from a staging area if the trucks themselves are not self-loaders. I can see this being a painfully slow process if the log loader on the trailer isn't grunty enough, and most of the tractor log trailers I've seen so far look sub-par at beast for such loading tasks.

Is it a stupid idea? Is there a better way? Have you any links to where I could learn more about what others have done please? I have searched on AS but couldn't really find much - which makes me think maybe this is a bad idea?

Thanks for any help on this.

 

[treeslayer2003]

i agree those units look like toys to me. well i tend to think big so here is my take. use a semi trailer tandem and build the body beefy, like with 6x9 tube for frame rails and 5x5 bunks and standards. use the slider from the semi trailer.
the loader is a good idea but pricey. maybe retrofit a dry wall loader. still gonna need a grapple tho. what i am thinking of would prolly need a 90 hp or better tractor but it would last forever. i saw some large pto pumps at surplus center .com

 

[northmanlogging]

I've seen some that aren't hopelessly wimpy, but I couldn't tell ya where... Theres one sorta locally here on a goose neck frame with a decent loader on it, wanna say its a blue ox?

Could be that getting a good used dedicated forwarder would be a solid plan for ya, the loaders on them are built for the task.

 

[KiwiBro]

i agree those units look like toys to me. well i tend to think big so here is my take. use a semi trailer tandem and build the body beefy, like with 6x9 tube for frame rails and 5x5 bunks and standards. use the slider from the semi trailer.
the loader is a good idea but pricey. maybe retrofit a dry wall loader. still gonna need a grapple tho. what i am thinking of would prolly need a 90 hp or better tractor but it would last forever. i saw some large pto pumps at surplus center .com

Thanks for this.

A while back, when I had even less $ than I do now, a stepped equipment trailer with tandem rear and single front (under turntable- not sure of correct name for it) axles went for $1200. Why are those deals never around when you have the money for 'em? Could have hacked that up and had some steel left over for other projects.

I'm not sure what you mean by drw wall loader sorry. Googling brings up sheetrock (drywall) panel lifters, which would be a fun day out on a log trailer but not very productive.

I guess we are talking prentice, GMC, etc self-loaders up in your neck of the woods. They seem to be the sort I am thinking could work. Would at least be solid enough, but hopefully without completely maxing out the tractors rear end. These self loaders seem to need about 40 gpm, and surpluscenter has such PTO pumps, thanks.

Yes, tractor will be somewhere between 70-100HP because that's all I can afford and I am hoping to keep the size down to stay manoeuvrable as I get in some tight places at times.

There's a few truck log trailers for sale here. Some are 4-axle such that the two front axles are a bit like a set of dollies with a drawbar and they have a turntable/race sort of connection for the rest of the trailer. I'm wondering if I could just use these front axles+drawbar, putting a frame on the turntable/race, with just a pair of bolsters/bunks on the frame, and then the load is going to be centered over the axles, and control how far the frame can pivot on the race with a pair of rams I control from the tractor seat. This could be useful for getting around farm gates and tight corners. Would need to make the drawbar longer to leave room for the loader though. Also, these are road-going trailers and the center of gravity is quite high and possibly tippy off-road? I'd hat to drive over a sloped trail and feel it go - it'll for sure take the tractor with it. There's only ever be about 4t payload on it though, although I would need to experiment with what is safe before the tail starts to wag the dog.

 

[KiwiBro]

I've seen some that aren't hopelessly wimpy, but I couldn't tell ya where... Theres one sorta locally here on a goose neck frame with a decent loader on it, wanna say its a blue ox?

Could be that getting a good used dedicated forwarder would be a solid plan for ya, the loaders on them are built for the task.

Thanks. Will keep looking around for such trailers but so far, nothing much local. If I want to shell out $8k, I could have myself a burnt out timberjack trailer. Um, I think I'll pass on that.

The dilemma with a forwarder, or anything I can't tow with my tractor on road under my standard drivers licence, is I'm targeting small woodlots on farms. Would rather not pay for transporters every time I need to shift it, which would be often. Would rather not have the $ tied up in a road trailer for it either. Unless it just works out the most sensible option - which is probably what you're telling me and I'm just not hearing it yet ;-).

 

[hseII]

 

[treeslayer2003]

yes the dry wall loader is really a prentice with out a grapple. over here they seem to sell for almost junk price where as a prentice log loader is seemingly gold. same machine minus the grapple.
my thoughts are very likely much to heavy for what you want.........just the way i think lol. could be down sized to some thing in between

 

[northmanlogging]

Thanks. Will keep looking around for such trailers but so far, nothing much local. If I want to shell out $8k, I could have myself a burnt out timberjack trailer. Um, I think I'll pass on that.

The dilemma with a forwarder, or anything I can't tow with my tractor on road under my standard drivers licence, is I'm targeting small woodlots on farms. Would rather not pay for transporters every time I need to shift it, which would be often. Would rather not have the $ tied up in a road trailer for it either. Unless it just works out the most sensible option - which is probably what you're telling me and I'm just not hearing it yet ;-).

Forwarders are rubber tired... like a skidder they are usually articulated, but have bunks and a loader built in. Go anywhere load anything

 

[Greenthorn]

This page should give ya some ideas, this is kinda what we wanted years ago.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/log-trailer-with-crane-trailer-axles_320773874.html

 

[KiwiBro]

yes the dry wall loader is really a prentice with out a grapple. over here they seem to sell for almost junk price where as a prentice log loader is seemingly gold. same machine minus the grapple.
my thoughts are very likely much to heavy for what you want.........just the way i think lol. could be down sized to some thing in between

Thanks. Looked at Prentice telesticks just now. We have something similar down here I hadn't thought about. Will check to see what they go for and if it stacks up once adding in the cost of the grapple+rotator.

Forwarders are rubber tired... like a skidder they are usually articulated, but have bunks and a loader built in. Go anywhere load anything

Thanks. Seen quite a few videos and they sure can get into and out of some crazy places. But I haven't yet got my head around how to cheaply move them from job to job.

This page should give ya some ideas, this is kinda what we wanted years ago.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/log-trailer-with-crane-trailer-axles_320773874.html

Thanks. That's a beefier loader than I am used to seeing on them. That company claims to make for quite a few brands. Does anyone know of any available in their neck of the woods like this? I'm leery about spending that sort of money (looks like about US$20k x the minimum order of 2 = $40k) on unknown quality. Don't want to be trying to repair something a few months after buying it nor finding there's something oddball that nobody has parts for or will need a heap more money thrown at it to do it the way our market is used to seeing/working on.

 

[1270d]

How far do you move between jobs? We have run forwarder on the road 25 plus miles between jobs. They run 10 mph or so.

 

[northmanlogging]

my record with the skidder is about 20 so ya beat me there!

But I did go through a school zone at about 30mph... I'd slowed down a little...

 

[KiwiBro]

How far do you move between jobs? We have run forwarder on the road 25 plus miles between jobs. They run 10 mph or so.

Could be just a few miles down a road the public hardly ever travel on, so unlikely to ever be seen by officialdom, or could be 20miles on our main state highway. I've only done some preliminary digging into the rules for log forwarders on public roads and can't find much about what is or isn't allowed and what class licence (or what endorsements) is needed. I know that with a tractor and trailer, provided not too heavy, I'm good with my current licence. But with a forwarder, I dunno.

 

[northmanlogging]

no lawyer...

here a wheeled tractor is a wheeled tractor, just need an orange triangle, or a chase vehicle, as long as your under 8'6" wide (not that farmers care...) and stick to side roads and 2 lane highways, driving a skidder on the freeway (motorway?) would probably get a guy shot...

 

[KiwiBro]

no lawyer...

here a wheeled tractor is a wheeled tractor, just need an orange triangle, or a chase vehicle, as long as your under 8'6" wide (not that farmers care...) and stick to side roads and 2 lane highways, driving a skidder on the freeway (motorway?) would probably get a guy shot...

In many of the areas it would need to go, there are side roads (many just gravel) and then the main state highway (100 kph speed limit). Tractor will do 35 kph with a tail wind, downhill, on a promise, and it's darn scary on the open road where the speed limit is 100 kph but single lane and many of the corners are still 70-90 kph with no shoulders. I've seen too many insane drivers to not be scared shitless when on the state highway in a tractor. I could light it up like a Christmas tree and some cowboy at the end of an illegal 14hr driving stint, with 20+ tons under his control doing 90-100 kph comes around the corner right behind me and it's game over for someone.

If I could afford it, I'd put the tractor on a transporter too, or hire pilot vehicles, but it just starts getting way too expensive when may do two moves a month, occasionally more.

*edit* I'll have to read up on pilot vehicles and what it takes to become one.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah I try to keep my drives to the 35 mph side roads, sometimes I have to unload on a highway and drive a short distance, usually on a shoulder though.

My chase vehicle is just the crummy with the flashers on, petrified wifey driving it... sometimes con a neighbor into it...

 

[1270d]

It is a rare occasion that we road the machines anywhere, takes too much time. But sometimes it works out to be the best way.

 

[gomoto69]

What exactly is it you need to accomplish? Are you just trying to get your wood from the bush to a landing? And how far on average would that be? If it's not too far, you might be farther ahead using a wheeled arch of some type and a winch to skid as many logs as your tractor will handle to the landing, then buck to length and hire self loading trucks only to haul. Loading a fowarder then unloading, then loading on a truck may not be the most efficient method, but i may not be understanding your situation either!

 

[KiwiBro]

Forwarding for often a mile or three, over steep to mediocre terrain on trails that would be tight and sketchy on a quad, to truck-accessible areas. Just think of that ugly patch way out the back in a forgotten wilderness the farmer never gave a second thought to. The sorts of jobs most would struggle to find a polite way of saying they can't do without questioning why the farmer bothered to waste their time calling them out to view.

That's my niche. LOL. My comparative advantage is being more insane and more willing to suffer than the next guy. I've learned that if self-employed, it's legal to pay yourself far less than the minimum wage.

 

[gomoto69]

Ok, then your idea makes perfect sense. Here in bc, alot of the log hauling has gone to short logs as opposed to the regular 51'6" saw log. Many combinations are used, super b, even king b now (pup is also tridem, total of 9 axles with a tridrive tractor, with gross weights approaching 80,000kg), as well as tri and quad wagons behind tridrives. The quad wagon trailer i think is what you were describing, and would probably work well behind your tractor, although the front 2 axles and reach pivot in relation to the trailer frame, so no room for a picker. Is there any way you can mount a front end loader on your tractor? There's no weight on the reach of the wagon, quite easy to unhook to load it, simple pintle hitch. I hauled contaminated dirt all winter in northern alberta with a tri-quad gravel truck, little tricky backing up but not too bad!