Anyone doing freelance climbing

[ropensaddle]

Just wondering if anyone has been successful doing freelance lately. I have thought of it when slow but then, when I'm slow ; likely everyone else is too. Anyway if your doing it or have done it, what are the good things about it and what seemed to be the bad? I would hate to see my wraptor rust away

 

[imagineero]

I used to contract climb a lot but have gotten out of it the last few years. You're right about wanting to do it only when youre slow and the same being true of other companies.

The good
It's not your job, it's not your worry. Forget about organising labor, chipper, equipment, dump site, quoting, dealing with client etc... just turn up to work on time with your saws sharp, tree on the ground, you leave. No chipping/cleanup. Forget about keeping an eye on the crew. Contract climbing can be very motivating in terms of allowing you to really focus on climbing. Set day rate equals no losses if things take longer than expected. Sometimes you get to work on jobs that you might not normally do, especially if contracting to a much larger company. Sometimes the jobs really aren't that hard. A top rate contract climber makes about AUD$600/day over here.

The bad
Most times, you're only going to get called in if it's huge, technical or dangerous. You better have plenty of tricks up your sleave, especially since you wont get to see the tree before doing the job most times. Most small operators will expect you to crank out a 2 days job in a day if you're billing out top rates. You probably wont get paid on the day and may need to chase payment. Serious high production is what it's about, and very few climbers have the experience, skills and equipment to consistently produce high production in sometimes technical and dangerous work. You won't be calling the shots in terms of how the ground crew is run. You may not like the ethics of the company you are working for. It's hard on your body, you will work at least twice as hard as you would for yourself. The money is a lot less and you will start thinking that for the money you got for flogging yourself raw for 8 hours you could have probably just trimmed a hedge for a half day and went home paid in cash the same amount. You might end up climbing trees that you wouldn't have bid on if you quoted them. If you have a truck and chipper, they are sitting idle while you're contract climbing. You might be too worn out to climb the day after. The guys grounding for you may have no idea how to run ropes, layout a pick, limb/buck efficiently. They may not even know how to tie a saw onto a rope. If running your own company, you may well end up contracting for your competitors. If employing others, your workers will likely have no work on days you are contracting.

The ugly
Unless you have a good rep and good contacts, you're pretty much whoring yourself out. That means you'll end up working for crews that have no idea of what they're doing. They may have massively underestimated the quote, the amount of time, and the amount of labor needed for the job. They will have no equipment, want to borrow your saws, ropes, fuel, truck etc... they might not pay you at all. Soon you will have a long list of companies you refuse to work for. Most organised companies don't need contract climbers - they have steady work and good staff climbers. Worst possible outcome - you quote a sketchy looking job you really don't want to climb, and bid it a little high as a 2 day job since you really don't want to do it. You get a call to do a contract climb, and, you guessed it. You're now doing that same climb you didn't want to do in a single day for Bubba's tree services as a day job for a lot less money while your workers have no work and your truck and chipper sit idle. Bubba's workers wreck your gear, make your life miserable, you flog yourself to make up for their lack of skill, it grinds your soul to watch them schlep their way through the day performing hackery on several other trees, then you have to chase Bubba for the money while the neighbors associate you with the poor work that got done on that job and decide not to use your company and instead hire Bubba.

I very rarely contract climb any more. I just say no straight up when companies I don't know call me. I have a couple of guys I've known for years I'll still do the odd day for, but I wont do a set day rate any more - I charge after the climb, according to the complexity and difficulty of the job. I also won't take bookings far in advance, and wont contract climb at all in the busy season. It just risks losing my own customers, and my business comes first. If I have nothing else on, and someone I know and trust needs a day done and is happy to hire me on the basis that I'll decide the rate after the job is done, then I'll take it. More out of boredom/interest than for the money though honestly.

 

[Pud]

Well said imagineero completely summs it up.
I do it over summer and the busy time but i know the 3 main bigger business owners quite well and there quite accepting when i tell them theres guys that work for them i wont work with certain jobs i wont do ect and its worked quite well for me both financially and time frame wise when im not overly busy with other stuff , not many other climbers in my area that arent drug addicts probibly helps also
Also gotta say i seem to be forever chasing up money lately

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I tried hiring myself out, a few years ago. What I found was that the companies who hired me mostly wanted to watch me climb, see what gear I used, and how I used it, only to go out and buy it for themselves, to try and make climbers out of their guys. Never mind their guys didn't have my experience and know-how. I was doing a job for one company, one chilly morning, and it involved roof clearing on the three-story home. As I was making a cut, I suddenly felt myself being pulled towards the edge of the roof, by my rope, that was crotched, as a safety, in a tree a few feet from the roof. I yelled out, "What the #$%^! Stop pulling my rope!" The ground guy, a very simple fellow, yelled back up that he was "managing the ropes on the ground." Huh? Another time, I was hired to do a roof clearing job for a two-story house on a terrible slope. The only way to access the roof was on a ladder, which I hate using. Because of the terrain, it took several tries to get the ladder placed so it was secure. I did the job, and started back down. As soon as my weight was on the ladder, it slid two feet to my left. Had it not been extended well over the roof, a precaution I luckily took, it, and I, would have been down for the count. When I made it down I asked the dumb-$%% ground guy, "Uh, did you, by any chance, move my ladder while I was on the roof?" "Yeah, man, I had to move it, just a little, to get some brush by it." ------ And so it went. Doing contract climbing/trimming for a company you don't know, well, is not for me. I charged $200/6-hr. day, and I was OK, with the money, I liked not having to do anything but climb and make the cuts, but the frustrations and dangers made the money not worth the hassle. As for getting paid, I always had whomever was hiring me sign my sub-contractor's agreement to terms, which stated that I got paid, on-site, as soon as I was done with the job. I only had to threaten one guy with legal action to get my check, out of all of the sub gigs I climbed. As my folks taught me, from a very young age: "Get in in writing, or don't do it!"

 

[brockhaskins]

Like the others have said I will climb for a few companies that I know and like. For the most part though I have come to find most companies that hire guys for a day are less than desirable to work for. There is a reason they don't have their own guys. That said the companies I'm willing to work for have their own good climber who is unable to work for some reason or they have a big job and need the extra help.

 

[Pelorus]

Have done a fair bit of contract climbing and there has gotta be mutual respect, or that kinda business relationship gets doomed. Have experienced doom, and fired some employers as a result.
The two other outfits I continue to regularly climb for when needed also help me out when I need them.

 

[treeseer]

I still do contract pruning, not removals, but it's rare anymore. Still, no rust on the wraptor, unless it's left in the rain...

"Bubba's workers wreck your gear, make your life miserable, you flog yourself to make up for their lack of skill, it grinds your soul to watch them schlep their way through the day performing hackery on several other trees, then you have to chase Bubba for the money while the neighbors associate you with the poor work that got done on that job and decide not to use your company and instead hire Bubba. "
So true. The soul-grinding hackery was the worst part. I take the magnetized signs off my truck when subbing, just in case.

 

[imagineero]

I still do contract pruning, not removals, but it's rare anymore. Still, no rust on the wraptor, unless it's left in the rain...

I thought you sold your wraptor to pay for surgery or something.

 

[ropensaddle]

I thought you sold your wraptor to pay for surgery or something.

haha sold you gotta be joking right ? Anyway; I did do it once with a member here went and helped, it was ok, got paid met different people but I get what everyone's saying!
I'm just sick of rain lol and the low bid stuff same ole same ole down here you know!

 

[chevybob]

I subbed for about 2 years. I have no desire to ever do it again lol

 

[JRoland]

Agree with imagineero on the "bad" part. You end up only getting called to do the big uglies. Which for me was ok but not every day. And if you get it done early on then it's time to head to another job...

 

[arborlicious]

And if you get it done early on then it's time to head to another job...

That's the bit I hate. Absolutely no incentive to get things done even a little bit quicker.

 

[imagineero]

That's the bit I hate. Absolutely no incentive to get things done even a little bit quicker.

That's why I won't do hourly/daily rate. I don't want to be in a position of feeling unmotivated or resentful while working. There's a real reluctance to pay contract climbers more than the going rate, despite there being a huge difference in the amount of work different climbers will get done in a day. Tree work isn't done by the hour when quoting because jobs vary in complexity and risk. Also, because different companies have different amounts of equipment. A company with their own crane, large capacity chipper, mini etc is obviously going to get a lot more work done in an hour than a guy with a ute and a couple saws, and charge a correspondingly much higher effective rate per hour, but may still be able to get the job done for less money.

Some contract climbers will turn up a little late, have a cup of coffee, get gear out, maybe have only a couple tired old saws, limited rigging and ropes. They might enter the tree by recrotching in the way up, rig small and be a slow climber. Plenty of staff climbers are like that, and thats the rate they can get work done at day in day out day after day.

I generally turn up at least 15 min before the job starts, with a dozen sharp saws fueled ready to go, loads of rigging and ropes, friction drum, pulleys, wraptor, and all the odds and ends plenty of throwlines, big shot, arbor trolley, wedges etc etc... I'll usually have my rope and rigging set before the crew arrives when contracting and be in the tree ready to work when they arrive. I climb fast and rig as large as is effective, and can generally get a days work done by about 10:00-10:30 which translates to about a $3k job, and I charge about $500 for a job that size. I can usually get a $5k job done by lunch time and will charge about $650 for that. Most contractors are happy enough to pay when they see how quick the work gets done. I'm happy to keep going and crank out 2-3 jobs in a day, with each of the jobs being about a days work, but I'll charge 2-3 days climbing rate for it also.

Did 3 jobs for a guy yesterday and it was a long day, 12 hours in trees. All up was maybe 80-100 cubes of mulch at 3 sites, and the trees were large and technical. First 2 jobs were over power and houses, last one was 100' euc that had fallen onto other trees and needed to be climbed and pieced out. Was probably somewhere on the order of a $10k-$12k for the principal contractor. I was completely exhausted by days end, but he didn't flinch when I billed him $1100 for the day.

I've had a couple guys complain, after turning up and smashing out a huge job for them in 3 hours and bill out a day at $500-$600. They usually say something like "how can you charge that, that's a day rate and you were there for only 3 hours!". I just tell it to them straight, that it was a days work and I'm billing a day for it. They usually call back some months later in need of a climber for a big technical job after they get sick of guys that turn up with no gear and take all day to get easy jobs done.

 

[arborlicious]

with a dozen sharp saws fueled ready to go

Only a dozen sharp saws...are you sure that's enough?

I was completely exhausted by days end, but he didn't flinch when I billed him $1100 for the day.

Man, I'd be invoicing $1,200 + GST if I had to work a 12 hour day for someone else.

I'm actually hoping for a big nasty removal today rather than a row of Macrocarpa to deadwood. At least the boys are out today chipping yesterdays mess while I get to climb trees for another company.

 

[imagineero]

Only a dozen sharp saws...are you sure that's enough?

Sometimes I think about adding a couple more. Having a bunch of sharp saws is the key to getting a crapload of work done in a day in my opinion. I usually have 3 x 200T's, 2 x 346xp's, 1 x 241cm, 3 x 441cm's and 2 x 660's, with a range of bar lengths on each and at least one spare chain for each saw. I don't sharpen on site, but if you've got 3 or 4 guys running saws and have blunted and swapped chains on every saw and blunted those as well, that's a lot of wood. I run full skip semi chisel on all the bigger saws, and the key to having it cut like magic and last a long time is the BobL raker method. I'd say on average my saws will generally get twice as much cutting done between sharpenings as most guys saws who aren't using the 6* rakers, and in less time as well.

I'm actually hoping for a big nasty removal today rather than a row of Macrocarpa to deadwood. At least the boys are out today chipping yesterdays mess while I get to climb trees for another company.

Deadwooding is by far the most depressing tree work for me. Takes so much time, but at the end there's virtually no difference. So much of that work available lately after that incident in victoria.

 

[Stihlmadd]

I've had a couple guys complain, after turning up and smashing out a huge job for them in 3 hours and bill out a day at $500-$600. They usually say something like "how can you charge that, that's a day rate and you were there for only 3 hours!". I just tell it to them straight, that it was a days work and I'm billing a day for it. They usually call back some months later in need of a climber for a big technical job after they get sick of guys that turn up with no gear and take all day to get easy jobs done.

everything he said.

 

[arborlicious]

I run full skip semi chisel on all the bigger saws

Is that Stihl or Oregon chain? I'm using Oregon 75JGX (Skiptooth full chisel) on anything 28" or longer. Never thought to go the semi-chisel route as it only takes minutes to touch up a long skiptooth chain every couple of tanks. Luckily all the big trees in these parts are marked with "horse shoe buried here" or similar so you never have to worry about chain damage...yeah right! (Although I have seen one tree marked as such)

 

[imagineero]

Stihl isn't selling skip any more in australia, except 25' rolls of RSLFK which is full skip chisel square ground at 10* for milling, and it's about $180/25' which adds up to $720/100'. Ouch. I found Oregon to be just too soft and not hold its edge very well. I use Stihl full comp in .325 on the limbing saws and Stihl semi chisel full comp 3/8 on saws up to 20" then everything over that wears Carlton semi chisel skip tooth 3/8. It holds its edge well and lasts a long time, cuts about as quick as full chisel if the rakers are done well but rakers come from factory way too high. I put 5 full strokes on the rakers straight out of the box with a sharp file, cuts as good as Stihl then.

The only benefit I found with full chisel is it's easier to recut a scarf if you need to. It's not really much faster at all than semi if they're both well sharpened, but full chisel doesn't hold its edge as long between sharpens and you tend to take a lot more off the tooth with each sharpening. I guess semi gets about twice as wood cut by volume as full chisel per chain. Farm city does Carlton for $440/100'. I go through a box every 4-5 weeks.

 

[arborlicious]

Righto. Need to get some of that Carlton chain to try out. Assuming you're running 3/8" x 0.063" semi chisel full skip so that's the Carlton A3EP-SK chain?

 

[imagineero]

Sounds about right, I'll check the box next time I'm downstairs. I'll spin you up a couple chains to try out if you're down some time. Happy to show you the BobL raker method too if you haven't seen it.