Cheap Chinese Clone vs. MMWS MS362C-M

[Justsaws]

Do not see many of those import saws around here and most that I have seen are 50cc or smaller. The Hitachi and Tanaka brands mostly, BlueMax etc.. Biggest complaint seems to be tensioners are weak.

The few that I know of that mortally failed were rod to crank bearing failures just like the Husqvarnas that I buy. Videos looked fine, saws looked like saws. If the crank goes in the import saw I hope the OP lets us know, and can provide an estimate of fuel consumed or run time.

Bottom line, when the OP posts about these saws I read and learn.

 

[nenicu]

I think is just cabin fever so go easy on the OP. Boredom can do strange things to people.

 

[skippysphins]

I have never seen a knock off here

 

[bryanr2]

I have never seen a knock off here

me neither

 

[Justsaws]

There is a shop that sells Tanaka local, have not been there. The Hitachis were sold at Menards and a few other places like that, Andersons sold some 621 types, do not remember the names. The BlueMax seem to be from Northern and possibly a few other catalogue stores, saw quite a few of them in Virginia, Northern had a store there. There are a few "vendors" in Columbus for the various types, some seem a bit special. Pretty sure there was a fellow in the Newark area selling the 50-64cc ones not all that long ago.

There are folks selling 070 copies as well, need to be real careful when buying a used 070/090 in Ohio these days. The folks selling the copies new are extremely straight forward about it but some folks flipping saws are not. Pretty much that way with any saw that has an AM parts market these days. That is not a dig at anyone, just an observation from a saw collector. If the folks are straight forward about the use of AM parts that is fine, sadly not often the case.

Real kick in the teeth is it waaaay easier to buy a 621 "clone" then it ever was to buy a 621 from RedMax. Also be wary of buying a used 621, it might not be all RedMax.

Basically they are availible and usually in the $200.00 range for the 60cc saws, the smaller ones can be had in the $120-150.00 range depending on what type. Mostly competing with the Poulan and sub $250.00 Stihls,Echos, and Husqs.

Do not see many used ones for sale, mostly the BlueMax types and usually for about the same cost as new. I think the last new ones were around $160.00.

Supposedly going to see another round of the Earth Quake 38-45cc saws soon as well as a similar if not the same from Ryobi. If the price is what is being bantered about(-$120.00 for 38cc), they will sell and fast.

Really need to convince the folks overseas to clone some 9000s and 50-70cc Oleomacs/Olympics. Shoot might as well dream big and suggest a 284, 999 and such as well. A 690 or some of the older Solos would be nice as well. Get some character in the import market.

 

[Chris-PA]

The clones were mostly eBay until recently. The BlueMax and the Earthquakes (they are the same things) were the first I saw available retail. Now I see the 45cc units at several large retail stores. I had time to kill recently a Lowes and checked out the saws. There was a Remington branded 46cc saw there, which is the same basic thing as the 45cc Earthquake saws based on the old G5000 design.

The castings and overall quality was noticeably better than either of my clones. There were no droopy or misshapen cooling fins, and the casting and plastic molding flashing was much reduced. The plastic parts fit well. It felt sturdy. It's clearly got a cat muffler.

These things are too heavy for 45cc, but would be fine in the larger displacements in which they are made. Still, if you are a company selling saws without any technological advantages (like strato or feedback carbs), you'd better be watching your back. The Chinese can make choked up saws that meet emissions too, with sufficient quality to steal plenty of market share. Every cheap Poulan has a strato engine, and they can clearly put a feedback carb on whenever they want as the parts cost for that is small and they already paid for the technology. The others will have to increase their costs much more significantly to implement it. The ones that did not invest in technology development will be eaten alive.

 

[Idahonative]

Brush Ape inspired me to do this thread, as he's shown such avid interest in my Chinese clone over the last couple of years. Since there's been such a flurry of old thread revivals this morning I couldn't resist.

So here are two 60cc saws, one a Stihl MS362C-M professionally ported, with mods detailed here: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the-ms362c-m.257666/

The other is a cheap Chinese clone of a RedMax G621, "ported" by a firewood hack with a Dremel. It's had the base gasket deleted but still has 0.035" squish. The intake port got widened a lowered a bit, the muffler was opened a little and the timing advanced a few degrees. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/porting-a-chinese-g621-clone.253359/

Here's the MS362:


Here's the clone:


The MS362 is about a second faster, timing the 3rd cut, vs the clone in the 2nd cut (I didn't use the first as the chain cut thorough the face). Of course it's different wood and different chain - the clone is cutting dead hard ash with a TriLink Chinese chain on an old McCulloch bar. I couldn't ID the wood the MS362 is cutting. Now lets look at rpm:

Here's the MS362 on the 3rd cut. I sampled a 5s section as shown by the selected area. That's at 149Hz, which (multiply by 60) is just under 9000rpm.
View attachment 484087

Here's the clone, also sampling a 5s interval. It's at 165Hz, or 9900rpm (almost 1k higher).
View attachment 484089
So it looks like the MMWS MS362 is a little faster, if you assume the wood it the same. Still, not bad for a $200 piece of crap and a few minutes with a Dremel.

More junk science with your phone app.

 

[Chris-PA]

More junk science with your phone app.

Such a withing critique! Especially since I didn't use any phone app. In fact, given that Randy's video doesn't appear to have been made on phone either (hard to tell, not that it matters anyway), there were no phones involved at all.

My recording was made on an HD video camera, and the analysis done directly on the HD video.

 

[Gugi47]

Brush Ape inspired me to do this thread, as he's shown such avid interest in my Chinese clone over the last couple of years. Since there's been such a flurry of old thread revivals this morning I couldn't resist.

View attachment 484089
So it looks like the MMWS MS362 is a little faster, if you assume the wood it the same. Still, not bad for a $200 piece of crap and a few minutes with a Dremel.

How long that would last?
Sorry but that would be a $200.00 lost for me
You got a nice job with the post. Thanks.

 

[bryanr2]

How long that would last?
Sorry but that would be a $200.00 lost for me
You got a nice job with the post. Thanks.

Yep

 

[Chris-PA]

Sorry but that would be a $200.00 lost for me

And that's fine, as we each make our own choices about such things. Unless the engine totally grenades (possible but unlikely) I can pretty much fix anything. So from my perspective I got my $200 worth in an entertaining project and I still have the saw. I could spend the difference between it and a "good" saw on things that are actually important to me.

This is by far the most I've spent on a saw - my wood gets cut, my house is warm.

At this point it is dead solid reliable and a joy to use. Did I mention it weighs 11.5lb? And we don't know how long it will last.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

OK I'll just come out and say it and with all due respect....

I have no dog in this fight, so as a side observer it seems to me that folks are not so much taking issue with your experimentation with "cheap" saws so much as it seems people are having an issue with what seems to be a backhanded attempt to discredit or slam Mastermind. I don't know what has gone on between the two of you nor do I care to know, it's not my business. But I can certainly understand why people tend to stick up for a member here who in my opinion has been an outstanding contributor to the knowledge base on this forum, and a good business man who delivers a quality service to his customers as promised.

Maybe I have completely misread the intent of your post Chris, but I do not think that I have.

I am glad that you enjoy seeing what you can do with saws most people aren't interested in. I like the spirit of "what can I make this thing do". But I think it would be received much more positively if it were not posted in the context of attempting to discredit a well respected member here. IMHO, your work would be much better represented with some before/after vids of the same saw in the same wood...

FWIW: I really don't see the point in the comparison when you aren't even cutting the same log with the two saws. That would be like me saying my truck is faster than yours because mine accelerates quicker on asphalt than your truck does on loose gravel. Nothing can be assumed to be even remotely equal to base the comparison on...

Also, why the elaborate sound analysis when a tach can be picked up for less than $100??

If you want credibility, you have to be credible......

 

[Chris-PA]

it seems people are having an issue with what seems to be a backhanded attempt to discredit or slam Mastermind.

This thread had a purpose, which it performed nicely, and it was not to slam Randy. I didn't hide that either, as the very first sentence will show. Let's just say people had an opportunity to demonstrate with their own behavior just who they are and what the issues at AS really are. And look at the fuss it created - surely you don't think I have not seen the threads elsewhere, including the one started over there prior to this one, the things posted about me, and then all the crying and whining in response?

But I think it would be received much more positively if it were not posted in the context of attempting to discredit a well respected member here.

The constant parade of nonsense here of late shows quite clearly that nothing will be received positively. There is no way to discredit someone with a simple comparison of saws cutting wood. Nothing was rigged, nothing was said to malign anyone - it's just two machines doing what they do. If the saw had been an expensive ported Husky, would you have had the same reaction?

I doubt Randy is particularly concerned that people will start buying Chinese clones instead of having Stihls and Huskys ported. But nonetheless the great defenders of all that is good and true had to line up to protect the lady's honor both here and on that other site, and I knew they would.

FWIW: I really don't see the point in the comparison when you aren't even cutting the same log with the two saws.

Sure, a comparison of two different saws cutting different logs at different times and places is of dubious value and always has been. But it is done all the time, and the fact that one is a cheap clone does not make it less meaningful or more insulting.

Also, why the elaborate sound analysis when a tach can be picked up for less than $100??

Because this is far more useful. These tachs usually have a 1/2sec update rate, which means they are noisy as heck if the rpm is not steady. The 2nd now deleted video in the recent Echo 500P thread showed that very well - it was all over the place and mostly unreadable. Here I used a 5sec period for both saw, allowing me to get a longer average of the rpm, and to pick the section of the cut I want to look at. If the rpm is varying a lot I can see that, or if it is holding steady I can see that too. And I don't have to even look at a tach while I'm cutting.

Last, the whole idea that it is elaborate is nonsense - it's trivial. Just click on the file and tell it to open the file, select a portion of the file and have it plot the spectrum.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

I don't follow every thread on this forum. I am on another forum of the same topic and IDK if there is stuff stirred up there. But what I am saying is, I really don't have any idea about whatever feuds are going on here or "over there", wherever over there is. Being 100% honest with you, if "over there" is the other forum I mostly lurk at, I have not myself come across a thread bashing you. I'm not saying it isn't there, I'm just saying I haven't seen it, much less participated in it. This thread is the only one I have shared my opinion in here or there. I really haven't a clue as to the feud, who is involved, and whose side everyone is on. Frankly I don't really care, that's not why I hang around.

As I said, I like that you delve into things many other people are not into. And I can appreciate taking what most people consider a throw-away saw and making a strong runner out of it.

I don't have anything personal against you either. This was just what I took from this thread being something of a bystanding "outsider" to whatever issues are apparently unresolved here.

However by your own words above, you admit that this thread had ulterior motives from the get-go. And IMHO, that does not do anything productive here. It just spawns more of what you say you stand against. What then is the point if you choose to be part of the problem and not part of the solution?

 

[Idahonative]

This thread had a purpose, which it performed nicely, and it was not to slam Randy. I didn't hide that either, as the very first sentence will show. Let's just say people had an opportunity to demonstrate with their own behavior just who they are and what the issues at AS really are. And look at the fuss it created - surely you don't think I have not seen the threads elsewhere, including the one started over there prior to this one, the things posted about me, and then all the crying and whining in response?

The constant parade of nonsense here of late shows quite clearly that nothing will be received positively. There is no way to discredit someone with a simple comparison of saws cutting wood. Nothing was rigged, nothing was said to malign anyone - it's just two machines doing what they do. If the saw had been an expensive ported Husky, would you have had the same reaction?

I doubt Randy is particularly concerned that people will start buying Chinese clones instead of having Stihls and Huskys ported. But nonetheless the great defenders of all that is good and true had to line up to protect the lady's honor both here and on that other site, and I knew they would.

Sure, a comparison of two different saws cutting different logs at different times and places is of dubious value and always has been. But it is done all the time, and the fact that one is a cheap clone does not make it less meaningful or more insulting.

Because this is far more useful. These tachs usually have a 1/2sec update rate, which means they are noisy as heck if the rpm is not steady. The 2nd now deleted video in the recent Echo 500P thread showed that very well - it was all over the place and mostly unreadable. Here I used a 5sec period for both saw, allowing me to get a longer average of the rpm, and to pick the section of the cut I want to look at. If the rpm is varying a lot I can see that, or if it is holding steady I can see that too. And I don't have to even look at a tach while I'm cutting.

Last, the whole idea that it is elaborate is nonsense - it's trivial. Just click on the file and tell it to open the file, select a portion of the file and have it plot the spectrum.

Chris, sometimes it's just better to STOP digging. You really have no credibility left on this forum.

 

[Chris-PA]

Chris, sometimes it's just better to STOP digging. You really have no credibility left on this forum.

You crack me up. Another sanctimonious clown who feels he speaks for "this forum" and has the right to advise me about what I should do. Here's the thing that bugs you: I don't care what you think, I don't need your acceptance or friendship, and you have no control over me. So what if you don't like me? So what if your friends don't? I get it. Why would I care?

I've watched the behavior of a core group of people here for some time, and what I've seen has long ago destroyed any and all credibility of you in my eyes. I'm well aware that this means nothing to you, but likewise why would it be any different to me?

 

[bikemike]

Wonder if the clone survived a third cut?

At 32.1 it should last a bit. But I'd run Lucas 100.1 and se if it blows. When it does let Lucas replace it.

 

[Tiewire]

You crack me up. Another sanctimonious clown who feels he speaks for "this forum" and has the right to advise me about what I should do. Here's the thing that bugs you: I don't care what you think, I don't need your acceptance or friendship, and you have no control over me. So what if you don't like me? So what if your friends don't? I get it. Why would I care?

I've watched the behavior of a core group of people here for some time, and what I've seen has long ago destroyed any and all credibility of you in my eyes. I'm well aware that this means nothing to you, but likewise why would it be any different to me?

BLAH BLAH BLAH!

 

[Chris-PA]

Wonder if the clone survived a third cut?

Well the year before this video it had already dropped and bucked the bigger parts of this:

And bucked this:



So you never know, it may have had one more cut left in it.

 

[tla100]

Heh, did anybody catch that first video Title, bump...........