So, we got this flyer at home from this landscaper...

[WCS99no1]

...and I am concerned. Our neighbor has been nagging us for a while to get a dead elm tree removed, but my Dad balked at the $1000 price quote he got. So these guys, who shall remain nameless, show up with a flyer advertising they do tree work. I wrote this to my mom tonight:

Mom,

I saw the flyer for the landscaper on the table. I know Dad wants to get that tree removed for cheap but I have concerns. First, they don't say they are ISA Certified arborists. ISA is the professional organization for arborists internationally. Second, they have no website where you can look up references or see their work. Third, I never heard of these guys before and they show up with a flyer? They could be a fly-by-night operation. They may not have liability insurance or professional training. I would very much be buyer beware.

I know how to get in touch with tree people. I follow a lot of them on Instagram and I'm a lurker at arborsitsite.com, an arborist/logger forum. I can ask around for the best options for getting that tree removed safely.

Ultimately it is dad's property, dad's money, and dad's decision and I know he only listens to his own voice. But if you could maybe make him think about it I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,


Anyway, am I right about this?

Thanks,
Joel

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

You have too much time on your hands if you worry about crap like that!

 

[Del_]

...and I am concerned. Our neighbor has been nagging us for a while to get a dead elm tree removed, but my Dad balked at the $1000 price quote he got. So these guys, who shall remain nameless, show up with a flyer advertising they do tree work. I wrote this to my mom tonight:

Mom,

I saw the flyer for the landscaper on the table. I know Dad wants to get that tree removed for cheap but I have concerns. First, they don't say they are ISA Certified arborists. ISA is the professional organization for arborists internationally. Second, they have no website where you can look up references or see their work. Third, I never heard of these guys before and they show up with a flyer? They could be a fly-by-night operation. They may not have liability insurance or professional training. I would very much be buyer beware.

I know how to get in touch with tree people. I follow a lot of them on Instagram and I'm a lurker at arborsitsite.com, an arborist/logger forum. I can ask around for the best options for getting that tree removed safely.

Ultimately it is dad's property, dad's money, and dad's decision and I know he only listens to his own voice. But if you could maybe make him think about it I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,


Anyway, am I right about this?

Thanks,
Joel

The ISA certs mean next to nothing and where removals are concerned they mean nothing at all! I am not sure you are helping your father at all. In fact quite the opposite.

 

[oldrockhead]

...and I am concerned. Our neighbor has been nagging us for a while to get a dead elm tree removed, but my Dad balked at the $1000 price quote he got. So these guys, who shall remain nameless, show up with a flyer advertising they do tree work. I wrote this to my mom tonight:

Mom,

I saw the flyer for the landscaper on the table. I know Dad wants to get that tree removed for cheap but I have concerns. First, they don't say they are ISA Certified arborists. ISA is the professional organization for arborists internationally. Second, they have no website where you can look up references or see their work. Third, I never heard of these guys before and they show up with a flyer? They could be a fly-by-night operation. They may not have liability insurance or professional training. I would very much be buyer beware.

I know how to get in touch with tree people. I follow a lot of them on Instagram and I'm a lurker at arborsitsite.com, an arborist/logger forum. I can ask around for the best options for getting that tree removed safely.

Ultimately it is dad's property, dad's money, and dad's decision and I know he only listens to his own voice. But if you could maybe make him think about it I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,


Anyway, am I right about this?

Thanks,
Joel

I'm not a tree service professional. I'm just a retired guy with a few chainsaws that looks at this website for knowledge from folks that almost always know a lot more than I do. In your case, I agree with you in wanting to save your Parents from liability, if these supposed "Pros", are uninsured clowns. If you can't find any reliable references for these possibly itinerant tree butchers, I'd go asking around for recommendations. It's funny that the people that have blown off your concerns, haven't offered any advice other than tell you you're being overly concerned. Are they going to pay for a potential lawsuit?

 

[Ash_403]

Just hire an outfit that has insurance, as mentioned. At least you'll be covered if they drop that tree onto something of value.

Like a coworker of mine had happen a few years ago. 20" DBH red oak onto his garage. He told me, he could have done that. But at least the outfit he hired had insurance.

 

[ATH]

While a removal requires less knowledge of tree biology than other tree work, complicated removals certainly require their own set of skills and knowledge!

On one hand a Certified Arborist probably doesn't bring much to the actual practice of removing a tree....but when you are evaluating companies you know nothing about, it at least indicates they take their job somewhat seriously - enough so to pay to take a test and keep up with CEUs. There are others who take their job just as serious (or more so) who are not CAs, but how are you supposed to know without references?

Food for thought:
-If am not a fan of door hangers. Most are busy enough without...But some are trying to grow, and need the exposure to do that. That alone wouldn't eliminate them off my list, but it would give me pause.
-Ask for proof of insurance (you want to physically see their insurance certificate....). Very few people ask me, but I keep a laminated copy in the truck for those who do. If you are still hesitant whether it is legit, call the agent just to confirm coverage. That would never offend me if somebody was taking extra steps on their own time to make sure they are protected.
-Also make sure they have workers compensation. The homeowner can be liable for bodily injury if not (in some states).
-make it clear what they are doing and not. The big steps are:
*Getting the tree down
*Removing brush
*Removing bigger wood
*Grinding stump
*Dig out grindings and backfill with soil/plant grass.

Each one of those ups the cost a "fair" amount. If pennies are tight, can they just have somebody get the tree down and get rid of the brush themselves and have others pick up the firewood???

 

[jrider]

You have too much time on your hands if you worry about crap like that!

What kind of decent person wouldn't want to caution their parents about using a possible fly by night tree company to remove a hazard tree? Some people don't give using a "company" like that a second thought. Maybe his parents are those kind of people and he is just looking out for them. Sure the ISA certs don't mean squat for a full removal but aside from that, I see nothing wrong with this.

 

[ckliff]

Not advice, but that was a well written note to your Mom. It's nice to see loving families!

 

[Jason Douglas]

Without knowledge of tree biology, wood characteristics, decay organism stategies, and God forbid, physics, dead tree removal can very much be a job best left to experienced professionals.

 

[FreeFallin]

My opinion: If you post a nice letter to your parents on an arborist forum, about being cautious of low bid, hack tree companies with no certifications or insurance. You can pretty much assume that any overtly negative responses will come from companies that think of themselves that way.

That being said, new, small companies don't always have the resources for training, certifications and even insurance like established companies do, they need people to take a chance on them and let them prove themselves to get those resources. If I had a couple of easy low risk trees away from structures that needed work I would look for a startup and then if they did a great job I would offer to be a reference for them. If this were a job at my parents home where there is all kinds of property risk, and risk of someone taking financial advantage, I would hire an established, insured, referenced company that hires and trains certified employees.

It's all about assessing risk and using the right tool for the job.

 

[muddstopper]

Let me say this about hireing people to work on your property. As the property owner, you are responsible for workers comp insurance on the person you hired. If they have their own coverage, that relieves you of some of the responsibility. If you hire them to do the work, you are responsible for any property damage that might occur. If they have insurance, then you are relieved of some of the responsibility. It is the property owners responsibility to make sure the people or company they hire does have insurance and proper license to do the work they are hired to do. Failure to do so will open the owner up to full responsibility for any and all accidents, injuries, and damages. Is it worth risking losing your home just to save a few pennies by hiring someone lowballing to get a job. Chances are if they are lowballing, they dont have the proper insurance coverage they should have.

When I had my business, I had a 1million dollar general liability policy. I paid quarterly comprehensive insurance for all of my employees. I provided copies of those policies to all the customers that asked to see them. In many instances the fact that I had insurance was the difference in me getting the job over some fly by niter looking to make a quick buck. It cost money to buy and keep insurance, which is why a legitimate company oftens has to charge higher prices.

 

[jasper nl]

While a removal requires less knowledge of tree biology than other tree work, complicated removals certainly require their own set of skills and knowledge!

On one hand a Certified Arborist probably doesn't bring much to the actual practice of removing a tree....but when you are evaluating companies you know nothing about, it at least indicates they take their job somewhat seriously - enough so to pay to take a test and keep up with CEUs. There are others who take their job just as serious (or more so) who are not CAs, but how are you supposed to know without references?

Food for thought:
-If am not a fan of door hangers. Most are busy enough without...But some are trying to grow, and need the exposure to do that. That alone wouldn't eliminate them off my list, but it would give me pause.
-Ask for proof of insurance (you want to physically see their insurance certificate....). Very few people ask me, but I keep a laminated copy in the truck for those who do. If you are still hesitant whether it is legit, call the agent just to confirm coverage. That would never offend me if somebody was taking extra steps on their own time to make sure they are protected.
-Also make sure they have workers compensation. The homeowner can be liable for bodily injury if not (in some states).
-make it clear what they are doing and not. The big steps are:
*Getting the tree down
*Removing brush
*Removing bigger wood
*Grinding stump
*Dig out grindings and backfill with soil/plant grass.

Each one of those ups the cost a "fair" amount. If pennies are tight, can they just have somebody get the tree down and get rid of the brush themselves and have others pick up the firewood???

Then 1000$ isnt much money

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

What kind of decent person wouldn't want to caution their parents about using a possible fly by night tree company to remove a hazard tree? Some people don't give using a "company" like that a second thought. Maybe his parents are those kind of people and he is just looking out for them. Sure the ISA certs don't mean squat for a full removal but aside from that, I see nothing wrong with this.

I can't say I've ever had any say in my parent's decisions. If anything I generally ask them their thoughts on things if I'm on the fence. I figure they've got ~25 years on me.. "been there, done it, wore out the t shirt"

The last tree dropped at my folks place involved my Dad, a 1970s Pro Mac 610 (bought brand new) a 100ft length of cable and chain and a tractor.

 

[Del_]

My opinion: If you post a nice letter to your parents on an arborist forum, about being cautious of low bid, hack tree companies with no certifications or insurance. You can pretty much assume that any overtly negative responses will come from companies that think of themselves that way.

If you are referring to my post then your assumption is wrong. I've been in the biz over 30 years and was a Certified Arborist for 18 of those years.

My point is that the ISA Certified Arborst certification has zero to do with tree removal and zero to do with climbing, rigging or chainsawing ability. Any kid in high school should easily breeze through the exam.

That being said, new, small companies don't always have the resources for training, certifications and even insurance like established companies do, they need people to take a chance on them and let them prove themselves to get those resources. If I had a couple of easy low risk trees away from structures that needed work I would look for a startup and then if they did a great job I would offer to be a reference for them.

I certainly wouldn't suggest my parents aid a 'start up' tree company in their effort to become legit.

Welcome to Arboristsite!

If this were a job at my parents home where there is all kinds of property risk, and risk of someone taking financial advantage, I would hire an established, insured, referenced company that hires and trains certified employees.

It's all about assessing risk and using the right tool for the job.

At risk of someone taking financial advantage?

It happens all too often and hiring companies that has certified employees is certainly no guarantee. In the Atlanta GA area the parents would probably end up paying twice as much or more for the same quality of removal work.

As with hiring any contractor references and insurance checks should be standard practices for all homeowners. The ISA seal of approval means next to nothing. It's only a marketing ploy. Ditto for TCI.

 

[BC WetCoast]

My opinion: If you post a nice letter to your parents on an arborist forum, about being cautious of low bid, hack tree companies with no certifications or insurance. You can pretty much assume that any overtly negative responses will come from companies that think of themselves that way.

That being said, new, small companies don't always have the resources for training, certifications and even insurance like established companies do, they need people to take a chance on them and let them prove themselves to get those resources. If I had a couple of easy low risk trees away from structures that needed work I would look for a startup and then if they did a great job I would offer to be a reference for them. If this were a job at my parents home where there is all kinds of property risk, and risk of someone taking financial advantage, I would hire an established, insured, referenced company that hires and trains certified employees.

It's all about assessing risk and using the right tool for the job.

If a new company doesn't have the resources for insurance, then it's a company that shouldn't be in business.

 

[muddstopper]

If a new company doesn't have the resources for insurance, then it's a company that shouldn't be in business.

I am not going to agree with this statement completely, altho I will agree in principle. I remember when I started my hydroseeding company. I already had a good job with benefits. I only chose hydroseeding because of a poor job some one did for my mother. I figured if he could make money doing such a poor job, then someone that tried to do the right thing should be able to make a killing. Hydroseeding is how I came up with my forum name. I did a job for a little lady and she called me her muddstopper because I seeded her lawn and stopped her mud problems. Anyways, It didnt take me long to findout that there was more to the hydroseeding business than mixing up seed and fertilizer and spraying it on the ground. When I decided to get into the business, I ordered and paid cash for a new hydroseeding machine. I had no choice but to either learn how to do it properly, or lose a bunch of money as a failure. I did a lot of internet studying, I attended several seminars in several states. Training courses offered at several colleges in different states to obtain certifications needed to even be considered for certain types of job. As I learned, I grew my business. I bought 2 brand new trucks and 2 more hydroseeding machines. I hired crews and bought more equipment. I didnt start out with insurance. At first it was just me and my family, but as things grew and I was bidding bigger jobs, I found that I had contractors asking to see my insurance and workers comp papers. If I was going to grow my business, those where items I had to have. After getting the proper insurance coverage, I started getting some of the jobs I had been losing to more established companies. I Incorporated and applied for a Dunns number which put me on a list of contractors that could bid jobs the average small company couldnt. I found myself competeing against much large seeding companies on much bigger jobs than I thought was even possible, which aloowed me to purchase the equipment needed to continue growing. I went from doing a few 1000 dollars a year to over a quarter million in just five years. at that point I had to make a decision, I was working full time away from home during the week, and working 30-40 hrs a week on the weekends. I had to decide which method of making a living I wanted to pursue. Since I was only a few years away from retireing from my regular job, and giving up that job would mean a huge loss in retirement money, I decided to shut down my business and finish up my regular career to keep my retirement benefits intact.

Having insurance at the start of my business might have made things easier, and is certainly something a person should consider, and really should have, but if you cant afford it, you have to start somewhere. I dont encourage anybody to start a business without having the proper equipment or experience to do the job properly or without proper insurance. I did and it was a struggle, and I certainly wasnt able to grow the business until I acquired insurance. I also dont think someone should not consider a business because they cant afford insurance. I would recommend that if your going to do tree work without insurance that you pick your jobs very carefully. Dont risk your life or everything you have worked for, or possible damage to a customer just because you want a particular job. I recently had a tree guy walk away from a job I needed done because he was afraid of the risk. I had hired him in the past to top some trees, but he wouldnt climb this one because to many things could have went wrong. I know he isnt insured and tree work is just a quick buck for him. Hes good at it and smart enough to walk away if he thinks the work is over his head. I know him working is a risk I am taking, but knowing he isnt going take a huge risk for a quick buck helps a little with easing the mind.

OH, that person that did such a poor job hydroseeding my mothers yard, I bought him out and put him out of the hydroseeding business. I still have his old hydroseeder sitting out behind my shop.

 

[BC WetCoast]

In hydroseeding the potential for damage is pretty low, so maybe going without insurance is an acceptable risk. In the tree biz, potential is significantly higher. If you are only going to prune japanese maples, then you may be ok, but anything that requires climbing, to me the risk is too high. Even if you are incorporated, if you do significant damage, don't expect to keep your house.

 

[ATH]

A minimal liability policy (excluding the vehicle...because the law says you need to have that insured anyhow) just isn't all that expensive for a small company. Finding an insurer to write for a start-up might be a different issue, but the cost isn't prohibitive for anybody who actually wants to run a legit company.

Workers Comp: I assume that is law in every state? Again, it is a big hit...but it is the law. Set up a payment plan that you pay as you go.

If you have a crew on a job, they should be earning enough to pay for Worker's Comp, Liability insurance, vehicle insurance, etc... If they don't, the amount of shortfall will be a direct correlation to how quick and how deep your bankruptcy is. Price jobs so you can afford insurance!!!

 

[Oldmaple]

ISA Certification not a necessity, just an indication of trying to stay educated. Liability and workers comp would be a necessity for anyone doing tree work on my property, along with a certificate to prove it. Although not a requirement in most states for tree work, in Michigan, there isn't any licensing required for doing tree work (other than pesticide applications), so no insurance requirements. It is buyer beware. Red flags include, inability to produce insurance certificate for liability AND workers comp, asking for money up front before starting the job. Also it might be a good idea to check with their insurance carrier (will be indicated on the certificate) that they are covered for "off the ground work", not all landscapers policies cover that. Ways to save money, have a friend take away the wood, although you will take on the insurance liability when this is done, leave the stump, no liability there, just an eyesore, clean up the stump grindings yourself along with the black dirt and seeding.

 

[romad10]

I can't believe those few guys mocked you for caring. Just make sure they are insured and bonded. Then call the insurer and bond holder to ensure its active and to what dollar amount.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk