Atop sharpener

[*ryan]

I'm looking at this as id like a guide to help me sharpen my square chains

now the more i look at it, and watch the videos and whatnot on it, it looks to me like it does not sharpen the same as a square grind chain needs to be
it appears to me it makes its own angular square top at different angles then the original square grind

is this true? or am i looking at things all wrong?

 

[w8ye]

The Atop's angles are more of a racing grind. The angles are much more aggressive than Oregon "CL" right off the 100' roll.

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

How does it compare to stihl's grind.. Over the summer I practiced all I could, just about everyday, trying to perfect the square ground, spent about 150 - 200 bucks between chains and special files.. triangle, double bevel, the atop specific file, 6 sided file, goofy... Destroyed a few chains but also sucessfully converted a few. What I noticed from the get go with the stihl grind is that it was impossible for me to do it good or get close to the factory with out digging in the cutter tie or blasting the raker away, especially when the chain was new..

Does anyone know if this ATOP rig avoids that..

Who knows I probably did it wrong all summer (like dangerous), However, I do know it was deff faster than everyone else's round grind on the crew because they continually reach for my saws.

I would love to hear some real world feed back on the ATOP! Looks soo fast & simple. I need to see it to believe..


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[w8ye]

I've made several Stihl RS chains square and they cut very well. I've never had a Stihl chain that was square from the factory which I would have to assume have angles much like those of a factory Oregon CL square chain judging from the pictures in the catalog.

 

[mdavlee]

Still square isn't any better than Oregon. I file into the tie straps as the angles are what I want there. I haven't broken any chains doing it that way either.

 

[*ryan]

so its not the same as a suqare

has anyone tried using the atop file with say an oregon filing guide?

 

[w8ye]

The files used with Atop guides only have two edges (one in each direction) whereas a regular bevel file has four edges (two in each direction)

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

I'm looking at this as id like a guide to help me sharpen my square chains

now the more i look at it, and watch the videos and whatnot on it, it looks to me like it does not sharpen the same as a square grind chain needs to be
it appears to me it makes its own angular square top at different angles then the original square grind

is this true? or am i looking at things all wrong?

so its not the same as a suqare

has anyone tried using the atop file with say an oregon filing guide?

I'm not sure about which Oregon guide your speaking of but, by re-reading the thread, your first post along with your last question about the Oregon guide is kinda leading me to believe that your under the impression that filing square ground is done at the same angles as you would with round ground & that the ATOP is filing in a new fashion than the norm for square ground. Just so were on the same page, the ATOP is filing in a normal manner for square ground. Or am I misunderstanding?

What W8ye was mentioned when he joined the conversation was the minuet differences in angles that contribute to how aggressive the chain will bite, like 5degrees here 5 degrees there, but still along the same general angle needed for square ground.

As far as using an Oregon guide with the ATOP file, well.. I'm pretty good at thinking outside the box but I'm not quite sure how that would be done?? I'm not being condescending by any means, but maybe your confusing Semi-Chisel with Full-Chisel, those types can be filed with with a conventional file guide but you have to use a round file.

Like I mentioned above I have some of these square ground specific files, here are some pics so ppl can see the differences. I know I had a hard time finding out the exact differences on the net so I just bought them.

Starting from right is a Vallorbe, the Vallorbe is the specific file used in the ATOP.
The middle is a "Save Edge 6 sided chisel bit file"
The far left is a "Save Edge double bevel file"
The bottom one is just a regular triangle file from home depot or wherever.. Before I had the above I managed to destroy a few chains trying to file square with it. Thus the reason I grabbed the above..

Knowing the Vallorbe was for the ATOP i just bought it for experiment.. I can see why it is marketed for the ATOP because it has a lot of bend when filing with pressure, the ATOP probably corrects that. However i did find It to produce the biggest cutter head. In other words the deepest side profile because it has a larger/wider bevel area compared to the others. I did find it extremely easy to cut into the tie strap with this one, again the ATOP probably cures that. Although you can only use one side of this file for sharpening which kinda blows, it is a four sided file so you can also use it on your rakers.

The middle Save Edge 6 sided works ok, but it also produced the smallest side cutter profile. I think I will find it to be useful as a chain wears down becoming a smaller tooth with less to work with. It also has a little flex when using complete strokes, which can throw your working corner off if not paying attention.

The Save Edge Double Bevel worked good, I liked it the most. Nice & sturdy when applying pressure with full strokes & the easiest to keep my working corner with.

One of the advantages to the Save Edge files I have here is that you get sharpening usage out of both sides, but to my knowledge aren't suitable for the ATOP.

Just for reference Ryan, here is the ATOP file in conventional file guide, is this what you were asking about? The reason It wouldn't work is because as you can see the the top edge that creates the working corner on a square ground is obstructed, plus a few other reasons as well.

Still, I would really like to hear some real world feed back on the ATOP. I think i would find that Vallorbe file to be the balls in it! Has nobody around here bought into this $200+ special?? Com'on now I don't want to be the guinea pig!!


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[*ryan]

Thanks for all that info
No i was not talking about that kind of guide
i was talking about the one that mounts to the bar and holds your angles for you model 23736a

i know that square uses different angles then what you would use a round file with
but seeing how the bar mount holder lets you change, i'm gonna call is camber and caster , to me it looks like it could be used the same way the atop does, as that just guides your file along the roller at a set angle?

 

[w8ye]

Many people have set up bevel edge files in different brand clamp-on file guides.
These guides are rather flexible and with a bevel file have the potential to move around a bit.

You would still need to concentrate on keeping the corner of the file aligned with the outside corner of the cutter.

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

Thanks for all that info
No i was not talking about that kind of guide
i was talking about the one that mounts to the bar and holds your angles for you model 23736a

i know that square uses different angles then what you would use a round file with
but seeing how the bar mount holder lets you change, i'm gonna call is camber and caster , to me it looks like it could be used the same way the atop does, as that just guides your file along the roller at a set angle?

Ahhhhh those guys!! I googled imaged "Oregon file guide" before I posted that post to see if there was a guide from them I did not know about, thinking back to last night I think I recall seeing a setup that looked unconventional, like maybe it was holding one of those square bevel files. It might of been a thread, you should google that phrase above & scroll through the Images, maybe you'll come across it.

Many people have set up bevel edge files in different brand clamp-on file guides.
These guides are rather flexible and with a bevel file have the potential to move around a bit.

You would still need to concentrate on keeping the corner of the file aligned with the outside corner of the cutter.

I've never really liked those types of rigs, either I'm too dumb, don't have the patience, or have had a real crappy quality one. I always end up tossing them aside and doing it by hand. However, If those rigs are capable of doing square ground, I wonder how that 6 sided chisel bit file would work with them? It's less bulky & would leave more room to manipulate... Just thinking out loud here but, I doubt one would want to try and convert round to square using the jig, as the strokes can get pretty jumpy & need a lot of pressure.

I'm surprised no-one else has joined in the convo here & spoke about the ATOP, I always hear everyone ranting and raving about square ground. I figure there's gotta be more than a few ppl out there with the it seeing as how hard filing square can be to get right. Plus.. ATOP's marketing video is awesome...haaaa!

Looking back over the summer, I really spent ALOT of time, effort & $$ trying to learn the technique after work hours. I think I'm just gunna buy one once the extra funds start rolling back in come spring.

Hey W8ye, do you know if there is a sticky thread specific to race chain? All I ever find are dead end threads when looking. They seem to be scattered everywhere too.



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[*ryan]

Here is a pic of one of my chains I have
It's on my c5
Have the same chain on my c9 aswell

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

Not too shabby my friend!! It does look like a nice clean job, no cuts in the cutter tie! My cutter ties are all gouged out on the first few i tried, not very happy about it, but it was the only way I could get the stihl chain to file with a decent angle. Maybe the Oregon chain has more room in the gullet?

What type of file did you use?

What do those nomenclatures stand for...... "C5 & C9"...?

Here are a few shots of probably the worst square grind job I have in my collection. As you can see, the cutter ties are really ground down. This was a stihl super L Half Skip Klassic. The funny thing is, is that on most the Stihl chains I converted like the Rapid Super Full Skip & a Rapid Super Klassic for example, it was easier to keep the angle I wanted with out destroying the cutter tie. For anyone reading, I wouldn't suggest doing it the way I did in these first set of photos.

Here is the Rapid Super Full Skip converted, as you can see, some reason the cutter ties weren't affected as bad.

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[*ryan]

I wish I could say I did that
But that's how my chains came new
Haven't sharpened them yet
Hense my questions

Homelite made some c series saws
C5-50cc
C7-70cc
C9-90cc

Back in the day saws

 

[mdavlee]

Here's some of the chains I've ground and filed before.

 

[hillwilliam]

Here's some of the chains I've ground and filed before.

The chain in the upper photo is probably just dandy, as is the one in the lower photo. It's just hard to see what is there. Folks trying to figure out what they're doing should just focus on the lower one. That looks like a really fast work chain.

Nice big, clean gullets! And, as folks can see here, they don't need to be bashful about chewing into tie straps and tops of drive links - at least a little.

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

Here's some of the chains I've ground and filed before.

Those look sexy mdavlee, do you use those for work?? They look sooooooo clean??

Did I miss a post? I see your pics re posted and a quote inserted from you but it's by hillwilliam Confused... Not a forum guru.. I'm kinda special sometimes...haha

Oh yeah, before I forget, what type of file are you using for those results, it just looks way more uniform than what I produce. Maybe I need to just stick with one file, I constantly second guess myself while filing and end up swapping to another one, it could be smaller or bigger, just depends on the results I'm seeing.


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[mdavlee]

The bottom was actually a gtg racing chain. The top one is a wore out full skip chain I've had a long time. It cuts so good I only break it out on something clean and easy. I only use double bevel style. I don't like switching back and forth and messing up the muscle memory I have already.

 

[jimmycrackcorn]

Ahh ic.. A special GTG chain! So your fully involved with CAD. Lol.

I don't understand Oregon's nomenclatures yet but I need to try some of there chisel loop. Every time I see a square ground job on one it seems better for some reason, maybe more room.?
With the Stihl loop I prefer the smaller rakers like on the Klassic loops, it's just seems faster, but my dealer says there is no difference. Which Oregon loop should I look for to replace a Stihl Klassic square ground? My dealer also tells me muffler mods are just a placebo so I trust advice here a little more..


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[mdavlee]

Oh yeah I've made probably 10 of those chains in the past year. Any where from 6-10 hours in each.

CL is the full comp.