CSM Vibration issues with bar clamp and, well, everything...

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coltree

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Hi folks,

I'm milling for the first time. 18" cypress with an ms661 in a 36" Granberg. The vibrations are sending bits and pieces flying all the time, and my worst issue is that the bar clamp next to the powerhead is allowing the bar to slip back into the chain.

I'm combating all this with a new milwaukee 18V hammer drill with the side handle installed for stability. The drill is ripping out of my hands, whacking my hands into the csm frame, trying to sprain my thumb, and not solving my bar clamp issue.

How does a guy in my position proceed?
 
Are you tightening the clamp enough? I'm a little confused with your problem with the hammer drill.
 
Hi folks,

I'm milling for the first time. 18" cypress with an ms661 in a 36" Granberg. The vibrations are sending bits and pieces flying all the time, and my worst issue is that the bar clamp next to the powerhead is allowing the bar to slip back into the chain.

I'm combating all this with a new milwaukee 18V hammer drill with the side handle installed for stability. The drill is ripping out of my hands, whacking my hands into the csm frame, trying to sprain my thumb, and not solving my bar clamp issue.

How does a guy in my position proceed?
Pics would help.:cool:
 
Are you tightening the clamp enough?

I don't know. I used the hammer drill on hammer setting. Made it go click-click, y'know... Is it possible to overtighten a bar clamp? I cant imagine tightening it more. My hands got beat up by the drill and I even had the accessory handle on the drill to stabilize it...

Also, I checked the balance from one side to the other to make sure the bar clamps were level/parallel.

I think my rakers are high. The chain is sharp but the saw is spewing small chips/dust. I think I push it through a bit hard, even though I've inclined the log nicely... Could a strong push lead to this?
 
I use a 1/2 "Gear Wrench" to tighten mine, so, it's only about 6 inches long, and gets plenty torque to keep them tight. I'm using the same set up as you, 660 and GB mill. I use out of the box Stihl chain. I used to use an old Homelite 1050 and it had no anti vibe stuff on it and it couldn't shake the bolts loose either. I'd be afraid that an impact wrench would wring off the bolts or bend stuff. I would try a new loop of chain and see if that helps. I always thought Cypress was pretty soft? I milled some Dawn Redwood, and it was so soft I could hardly walk fast enough to keep up with the saw. I milled 20 some slabs and the saw was running smooth and fast, then I hit a screw in one of the last slabs. I can't think of anything that would make the rig shake that bad. Are you using a guide rail/board on every cut? Even after I take the top slab off, I put my 2x10 guide board back on. You only need to put one screw in each end to keep the board from sliding off. That makes for a more true and smooth ride. On the Redwood the bark came off so easy I peeled the whole log. Every thing else I clean the bark really well to get wind blown sand and grit off the log. I would think if the rakers are too short it would make a rough bouncy cut, because the teeth are trying to bite more than they could chew. Hang tight we will get it figured out, Joe.
 
Are you tightening the clamp enough? I'm a little confused with your problem with the hammer drill.
He's using a battery powered impact wrench to tighten the bolts and they are still coming loose. I started to say to get some "Poly Lock" nuts, but I don't think you should need to do that, Joe.
 
I wouldn't use an impact wrench since you can over torque things. The clamp bolts specify a torque setting, 14 ft-lb I think? Are all the clamping surfaces clean? I use a scrench and turn a little on each until tight (calibrated wrist and elbow torque system). What was said before get a new chain out of the box and try. You shouldn't have to pushing with no more than slight pressure. Let the saw do the work. Good luck milling and I hope you get it worked out!
 
I use a ratchet wrench on mine as well. Hammer drill isn't made for tightening.

If you're forcing it through a cut it's chain related.

That seems sensible.

I'm going to file my rakers. I don't have a depth gauge and they're surprisingly hard to find, locally.

It's possible that I'm sharpening/grinding incorrectly in other ways. To be honest, I'm just getting on the "proper sharpening" bandwagon after 4 years of this and that. I have the fancy granberg grinder and the timberline unit, both gone into service for this operation.

I'll check back after toying with the chain situation. Thanks much for the input.
 
A new chain needs rakers lowered normally when milling. A 661 should power through 18" stuff with rakers down around .030-035" or around 7°.
 
Post a side on pic of your chain and we'll diagnose any chain related problems.
Definitely don't use a hammer drill to tighten the clamp.

Vibration can come from the powerhead which should show up when bucking.
The other source can be the chain - try a milling chain versus a bucking chain
 
Post a side on pic of your chain and we'll diagnose any chain related problems.
Definitely don't use a hammer drill to tighten the clamp.

Vibration can come from the powerhead which should show up when bucking.
The other source can be the chain - try a milling chain versus a bucking chain

You might chuckle at this: I received two ms250c powerheads from an old friend. I'm an arborist developing a company with little money. The powerheads did not perform at professional standard, so I thought I'd burn them up milling. I ordered a double-ended granberg bar, which didn't match the powerheads and now gathers dust. I resized the two ripping chains to fit my ms 661 36" bar, but the bar groove guides ended up being too wide to fit in the bar groove, so I'm using bucking chain.

I'm also having a great time.
 
Post a side on pic of your chain and we'll diagnose any chain related problems.
Definitely don't use a hammer drill to tighten the clamp.

Vibration can come from the powerhead which should show up when bucking.
The other source can be the chain - try a milling chain versus a bucking chain

I'll post pics later today.
 
Hammer drill is not the same animal as an impact driver. Hammer drill gives a back and forth motion along the in and out axis, impact driver its around the rotational axis. Hammer drill is only good for drilling concrete/masonry, etc., Not for tightening bolts; that's what an impact driver is for. But I think you'd be better off hand tightening the CSM with a wrench ( maybe a torque wrench). You can "feel" how tight, not so with a power tool.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
 
He's using a battery powered impact wrench to tighten the bolts and they are still coming loose. I started to say to get some "Poly Lock" nuts, but I don't think you should need to do that, Joe.
He said hammer drill impact would be a different story. Maybe he needs to use a basic wrench and hand torque them down
 
I'll post pics later today.
Stick with hand tools cause your not getting the concept that a hammer drill is for drilling and hammer drilling concrete, tile, and fire bond epoxy/ rock walls. Use hand tools to set up ur rig it may take a minute or 2 longer but your rig and saw will be safe to use.
 
Well you must be making a lot of powder sawdust because immediately I can see your rakers are too HIGH.
Without even taking into account the fact that the image is slightly rotated, the length to height/thickness ratio of the red line is 14:1
That ratio should be no more than 10:1
CUtter1.jpg

This one has the image rotated so the base of the cutter is level and you can see how high the raker is.
It looks to me like the raker has NEVER been filed.
CUtter2.jpg

These two are just as bad for raker height and even worse because
You really need to clear out those gullets as this helps sawdust clearance.
You con't have enough hook on the cutter
CUtter3.jpg

This is what they should look closer to
the top one is Will Mallofs, the nest two down are mine, the lower one does not have the gullet cleaned out
Compchain.jpg

More specifically (instead of a height to width ratio of the red lines above) the way to get the raker right is to refer to the raker angle
It's this angle.
The steel ruler sits atop adjacent cutter tops and its the angle made between the steel ruler and the lime between the cutter tip and where it contacts the top of the raker.
If the raker is flat topped it will be the yellow like - if its rounded it will be the blue one.
Rounding the raker will immediately increase the raker angle
Rakergeometry.jpg


I suggest you read up about progressive raker setting - it makes a big difference in cutting speed and reduces the load on the saw and operator.
It's in the Milling 101 sticky (post number 106) and a rather long sticky in the Hot saws/chain sharpening forum http://www.arboristsite.com/community/forums/chain-sharpening.74/
 
He'll on a new chain on most my saws I take 2 swipes at the rakers before I use em. I love my top handle saws to self feed without getting jumpy
 
Well you must be making a lot of powder sawdust because immediately I can see your rakers are too HIGH.
Without even taking into account the fact that the image is slightly rotated, the length to height/thickness ratio of the red line is 14:1
That ratio should be no more than 10:1
View attachment 581222

This one has the image rotated so the base of the cutter is level and you can see how high the raker is.
It looks to me like the raker has NEVER been filed.
View attachment 581223

These two are just as bad for raker height and even worse because
You really need to clear out those gullets as this helps sawdust clearance.
You con't have enough hook on the cutter
View attachment 581224

This is what they should look closer to
the top one is Will Mallofs, the nest two down are mine, the lower one does not have the gullet cleaned out
View attachment 581227

More specifically (instead of a height to width ratio of the red lines above) the way to get the raker right is to refer to the raker angle
It's this angle.
The steel ruler sits atop adjacent cutter tops and its the angle made between the steel ruler and the lime between the cutter tip and where it contacts the top of the raker.
If the raker is flat topped it will be the yellow like - if its rounded it will be the blue one.
Rounding the raker will immediately increase the raker angle
View attachment 581228


I suggest you read up about progressive raker setting - it makes a big difference in cutting speed and reduces the load on the saw and operator.
It's in the Milling 101 sticky (post number 106) and a rather long sticky in the Hot saws/chain sharpening forum http://www.arboristsite.com/community/forums/chain-sharpening.74/

Really appreciate it @BobL . I'll read everything you suggested here. I've been through the milling 101 thread (and *many* other CSM threads) but it's a lot to remember. Appreciate you pointing me to the post number. Aight, thanks everyone, I'll be in touch with an update. Even though I'm at that early sketchy stage, managed to pop these out: 20170521_173302 (1).jpg

Let me know if I'm doing anything odd.
 
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