Dutch Trig for DED?

[tprosser]

I don't believe the question is which one is better because it seems that both Arbotect and Dutch Trig have the necessary research and a proven track record.

Ryan,
I think you need to tell people that you are the Minnesota Rep for Dutch Trig. Please attach the published and peer reviewed research that you are saying exists. We cannot find any. Bartlett did challenge inoculations and lost many of the treated trees - not published - but negative research rarely is.

Also - 3 years of treatment with Dutch Trig does cost about the same as Arbotect - and you need to revisit the tree every spring. What about the infections that happen in April and May before the Dutch Trig is active in the tree.

This product is just another in the long line of products that have come to the market since I have been working with this disease - all made similar claims.

 

[Tree Keeper]

Yes Tom I am a rep for the midwest and I will also disclose that I ran the injection division at Rainbow. I am very excited that there is a biological control agent available for DED. Unlike the many other treatments that have been out there this one does not harm the tree. As you know infections that occur in April and May are often from beetle infections from the previous fall. True much of the research has been done in the Netherlands 100,000+ trees have been successfully treated and now that the product received EPA approval in 2006 will be used much more often. I think it is great that you can visit a tree every year and inspect the elms and the property for anything that may be needed. This type of service is recommended no matter what treatment you use.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I am very excited that there is a biological control agent available for DED.

Most studies look at Ulmus A. is there a track record with DT and Ulmus Rubra? I recently found out that the 3x treatment is phytotoxic in this species.

 

[tprosser]

3x Treatment

Ulmas Rubra has a smaller Xylem than Ulmas Americana. You use 1/2 the rate with Arbotect for these

 

[Tree Keeper]

Let me clarify some things. While I worked for Rainbow I was in charge of coordinating daily activities for the Injection division and did training on the macro-infusion process and corresponded with clients regarding their trees for one year before which I was on crews and also a crew leader. A majority of the trees that were injected were very healthy and had minimal injection site injuries from previous injection cycles. I believe Arbotect to be a very effective in controlling DED. I believe Dutch trig to be a new option and another tool in the arsenal. It is not a treatment for everyone or every tree. It offers property owners/managers with several trees to do annual treatments with static budgets with out having a spike in the budget every third year. I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.

 

[ATH]

I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.

I am always interested in keeping up with options. Are they available in digital format or snail-mail only?

Thanks.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

Dutch Trig’s EPA Registration

"and fully EPA approved since 2005"

Correct: Dutch Trig is fully EPA registered since October 2005.
For a copy of the EPA approved label, or the Material Safety data Sheet (MSDS), visit www.DutchTrig.com, and get a copy from the “Downloads” section.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

Dutch Trig a Joke??

He went so far as to call dutch trig - "a Joke".

I would not call Dutch Trig “a joke”, when since 1992 over 350.000 Dutch Trig treatments have been performed in The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and the US. The efficacy of the treatment over 15 years remains constant at 99%, in areas where non-treated trees do get sick at rates varying between 4 to 14% annually.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

Dutch Trig Claims

"all made similar claims."

To prove a product does what is claimed, you need controlled research. That is why the University of Wisconsin (known for its resistant-elm-breeding-program) performed a controlled Dutch Trig efficacy study, in which different elm clones were Dutch Trig treated ánd challenged with Dutch elm disease. The results speak for themselves and can be found at www.dutchtrig.com under downloads, University of Wisconsin research.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

I do have several copies of the poster presentation that was presented at the ISA in Minneapolis for anyone that would like them.

For a digital PDF version of the poster check out www.dutchtrig.com under downloads.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

Bartlett's early Dutch Trig field trials

"Bartlett did challenge inoculations and lost many of the treated trees"

Indeed Bartlett was the first to test and use the product. Where does the information come from that says they lost many of the treated trees? The results of their field test from 1996 and 1997 can be found on the dutch trig web page.

 

[Dutch BCMA]

Mycology of the Dutch Trig Vaccine

"Putting Verticillium Dahlia into a tree seems a little risky to me."

Injecting trees with a live version of Verticillium dahliae would be risky. That is exactly why Dutch Trig uses a hyaline (or better known as “white”) variant of Verticillium albo-atrum.

The whole idea behind vaccination is using a weak strain of a (similar) disease. And the hyaline variant of Vaa is exactly that: it has lost so much of its phytopathological capacity that it is no longer capable of affecting even Verticillium susceptible tree species such as Maple! For EPA registration of Dutch Trig there has been a Non-Target-Host Range study in which Dutch Trig was injected in 19 different trees species and checked for any signs of pathogenicity for one season.

Secondly, the hyaline variant has lost its capacity to produce microsclerotia, which are the small black structures Vaa needs to survive (hence the name “white” variant. The Vaa in Dutch Trig is only capable of producing the white mycelial threads). So the Dutch Trig version of Vaa is no longer capable of surviving anywhere, not in the elm after injection (where it can not be isolated from any more 2 to 3 weeks after injection!), nor in the soil if it would ever get there.

If one is truly interested in full details of the mycology of the used strain of Verticillium (WCS850), contact the European distributor by e-mail (check the website).

 

[tprosser]

Where is the research

Wow Dutch - that is a lot of posts.

I have 8500 elms I protect and it is my responsibility to do the best thing for my clients. If your product is better and less injurious to the tree, then it is my responsibility to let them know and give them that option. But I have been entrusted by these people to save their specimen tree and I have something that is working. I need more - a lot more.

I've been around too long to make decisions based on words. Where is the published peer reviewed research. I went through this with Alamo and Phyton, before that it was Pseudomonas syringae, which was even in National Geographic and was touted as the cure for DED. All Failed. Alamo was supposed to last 3 years, was supported by a highly credible firm and scientist - it lasted one season. Anyone who has been treating elms for more than 10 years was likely burned by this and remembers it well. Phyton 27 was the next coming - it plain did not work. Pseudomonas syringae even had government money poured into it as it was supposed to do what your organism is claiming. 10's of thousands of trees were treated - The tree built resistance to it and it failed.

I talked to a professor at the University of Minnesota about all the proposed treatments for DED that have come down the pike - he said he counted 532 in the past 50 years. He then told me that Arbotect is the only one with a track record that works multiple seasons. Our track record shows that over 10's of thousands of elms we have lost less then 1% over 3 years.

How about if we do a study together? I can find at least 100 mature trees.

I have questions
1. You are wounding the tree in the trunk at chest level every year. These must add up. Why do you claim that this is less invasive then Arbotect done every 3 years? It seems the same to me.

2. Why did the person who headed the project from Denver call it a Joke? I know him and he has worked with DED for many years. He is also fair and balanced and happens to be the President of the Rocky Mountain ISA Chapter right now. This makes me very nervous - probably more than anything.

3. Why despite your work on this for the past 10 years - is there no peer reviewed published research? (Bartlett lost 19 of the challenged trees - no controls or treated were lost in unchallenged trees- This means???)

4. In Minnesota - DED can infect trees as early as Mid April. Your treatment happens in Mid May and Takes 15 days to be effective. This is the same problem with Alamo annual treatments (which needs to wait till June).

I promise to remain open minded. But I have been fooled 3 times now. It is not going to happen a fourth time.

 

[Tree Keeper]

Tom, Bt A.K.A. Milky spore is a bacteria that is primarily used as an insecticide attacking the larvae of beetle and mosquito species depending on the variety. I also believe it is what is used to aerial spread for Gypsy Moth. It is applied in several different manners from dust to suspension. Maybe it did not work because it was going after the insect larvae and not attacking the fungus the real cause of DED? I had never heard of using it for DED.... interesting

 

[tprosser]

Oops

It is called Pseudomonas syringae. Not Bacillus.

 

[MarsCrash]

Showdown

So the reps for Dutch Trig say it works. The reps for other products say it doesn't. There's only one way to settle this: an old fashioned wild west showdown with backpack sprayers at ten paces.

 

[tprosser]

Does Dutch Trig Work?

Its not about the reps and what they say. I can see why you would say that so I will not be insulted.

It is all about peer reviewed published research. This is the only field, related to the health care of an important and majestic living organism, where it seems to be acceptable that certain practitioners don't deeply care about research.

That products can come into the market and be successful without even an attempt at doing controlled studies that have to pass a high standard of review.

Like I said - our company cares for 8500 elms. I owe them the best product and service no matter who distributes that product. Please do not associate me as someone who would sell his soul and integrity to make a buck.

Any person who is willing to buy into any product or treatment without reading the research and demanding a high standard of predictability for their clients and the trees they have been entrusted to care for - in my opinion should stay away from trees and go into selling insurance.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is called Pseudomonas syringae. Not Bacillus.

Or more to the point it is not Bacillus thuringiensis