Ethanol fuel additives?

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Ethanol in fuel is definitely a rip off unless you are a subsidized corn farmer or an ethanol ptoducer. The oil companies have gain in it as well considering that ethanol is cheaper than gas. You can bet that price difference isn't reflected at the pump.
 
The oil companies have gain in it as well considering that ethanol is cheaper than gas. You can bet that price difference isn't reflected at the pump.
That's not true... ethanol costs more than gasoline, it's an added expense to the oil companies.
The oil companies have been fully behind legislation attempts to remove (or lower) the EPA's ethanol mandate.

"And that takes us to the cost issue. Since 1982, officials in Nebraska (which is the second-largest ethanol producer, behind Iowa) have been monitoring monthly and annual wholesale, or “rack,” prices for ethanol and gasoline at fuel depots in Omaha. In December 2014, the rack price of a gallon of ethanol was $2.40, while a gallon of unleaded gasoline was $1.73. But recall that we need 1.5 gallons of ethanol to match the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline. That means you would need to pay about $3.60 to get the same amount of energy as from a gallon of gasoline, making ethanol about twice as expensive.
That’s not unusual. Since 1982, the price of an energy-equivalent amount of ethanol has, on average, been about 2.4 times the price of gasoline. Furthermore, for eight full years between 1986 and 1998, ethanol cost at least three times more than an energy-equivalent amount of gasoline. In fact, since 1982, ethanol has always been more expensive than gasoline."


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/opinion/end-the-ethanol-rip-off.html?_r=0
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That's not true... ethanol costs more than gasoline, it's an added expense to the oil companies.
The oil companies have been fully behind legislation attempts to remove (or lower) the EPA's ethanol mandate.

"And that takes us to the cost issue. Since 1982, officials in Nebraska (which is the second-largest ethanol producer, behind Iowa) have been monitoring monthly and annual wholesale, or “rack,” prices for ethanol and gasoline at fuel depots in Omaha. In December 2014, the rack price of a gallon of ethanol was $2.40, while a gallon of unleaded gasoline was $1.73. But recall that we need 1.5 gallons of ethanol to match the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline. That means you would need to pay about $3.60 to get the same amount of energy as from a gallon of gasoline, making ethanol about twice as expensive.
That’s not unusual. Since 1982, the price of an energy-equivalent amount of ethanol has, on average, been about 2.4 times the price of gasoline. Furthermore, for eight full years between 1986 and 1998, ethanol cost at least three times more than an energy-equivalent amount of gasoline. In fact, since 1982, ethanol has always been more expensive than gasoline."


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/opinion/end-the-ethanol-rip-off.html?_r=0
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Yup, what he said. They have a giant tank of it at the refinery here..... too bad its denatured with a small percentage of gasoline.... it would be the worlds biggest Martini...... free samples at lunch anyone???
 
That's not true... ethanol costs more than gasoline, it's an added expense to the oil companies.
The oil companies have been fully behind legislation attempts to remove (or lower) the EPA's ethanol mandate.

"And that takes us to the cost issue. Since 1982, officials in Nebraska (which is the second-largest ethanol producer, behind Iowa) have been monitoring monthly and annual wholesale, or “rack,” prices for ethanol and gasoline at fuel depots in Omaha. In December 2014, the rack price of a gallon of ethanol was $2.40, while a gallon of unleaded gasoline was $1.73. But recall that we need 1.5 gallons of ethanol to match the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline. That means you would need to pay about $3.60 to get the same amount of energy as from a gallon of gasoline, making ethanol about twice as expensive.
That’s not unusual. Since 1982, the price of an energy-equivalent amount of ethanol has, on average, been about 2.4 times the price of gasoline. Furthermore, for eight full years between 1986 and 1998, ethanol cost at least three times more than an energy-equivalent amount of gasoline. In fact, since 1982, ethanol has always been more expensive than gasoline."


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/opinion/end-the-ethanol-rip-off.html?_r=0
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OK, I had assumed ethanol was cheaper than gas since E85 is cheaper than E10 around here but I guess that's due to subsidies then?
 
E85 is cheaper than E10 around here but I guess that's due to subsidies then?
You're talking about retail price, which is mostly artificial.
A lot of it has to do with how the fuel is taxed, depending on your location, at several levels, throughout the supply chain... it's mostly market manipulation. Most of the subsidies have been gone for a few years now, first replaced with tax credits, and now (largely) replaced with outright taxation on non-ethanol gas. The game plan is to keep ethanol blended gasoline at a cheaper retail rate... assuming you won't realize you're buying 33% less energy at a just a few cents less. It's a game of dollars... and special interest... people are getting filthy rich off the game and kicking some of it back to the politicians supporting the game.
The game is played with more than ethanol... "they" herd the people like sheep when their eyes ain't open.
Sad... but true... follow the money... always follow the money.
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Please excuse the slightly OT, however it does involve ethynol fuel.
This is a hypothetical story, as so far, my saw runs perfectly fine, but I have always wondered about this. I have a question, sort of, who is ultimately responsible for a chainsaw engine that fails while under warranty?

I have just bought a new Husqvarna chainsaw and purchased the three cans of fuel to increase the warranty to 4 years (yes, I realize that the warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on). Looking through the buyer reviews on the Husqvarna website, anyone who complained about the engine failing due to scoring of the piston or cylinder was essentially told, by an employee of Husqvarna, that it was their fault that they missused the saw due to using ethynol fuel (even if they used the proper fuel/oil mix ratio) and the person should have used ethynol free fuel or the “canned” gas they sell, hence why they promote the use of said fuel to double the warranty I assume. Now using those reviews as a guide for my question:

If, after using the canned gas, lets say I go to the dealer and purchase Husqvarna 2 stroke oil, then go to the nearest gas station and get a gallon of regular gas, that, of course, has ethynol content. I then mix a container of oil into the gas and then fill up my chainsaw with the requred 50:1 gas/oil mix. I then use the saw and after a half hour, or so of cutting, I shut the saw off. When I go to restart the saw, it won't start and the pull-start seems very easy to pull (little or no compression). So I take the saw to the dealer and he says that because the engine is scored (or some other mechanical issue) it isn't covered under warranty and he (and Husqvarna) determine it's my fault for using ethynol gas, even though all gas up here (as far as I know) has ethynol content, regular or premium gas.

However, I had used all the proper oil/gas amounts, and properly maintained the saw etc. So again, who is at fault? Is it because the saw maunufacturer produced the saw to run only in very strict conditions and that even being off a tea-spoon or so of oil either way would cause catistrophic damage? Or is it the one who forced Husqvarna (or Stihl, Echo, Dolmar...) to such strict conditions? Or, is it my fault for using ethynol gas in the first place? Again, I had followed all the instructions in the manual and used proper gas and oil and the gas had (presumably) 10% or less ethynol, still allowed in the manual. After following all instructions, the saw engine still failed. Was it because of ethynol gas? If that were the case, then virtually all 2 stroke engines would fail, and we would be inundated with people screaming about engine failures and companies not honoring warranties on said items.

But who forced the gas staions to carry ethynol gas and who is the one who is the underlying cause of all this crap in the first place?

So when I buy my saw,

1 – I'm forced to buy ethynol gas (or pay outragious amounts for specialized fuels), even though it supposedly causes damage to engines.
2 – I can't adjust the carburetor because of some arbitrary ruling from some government agency which results in my saw running too lean from the factory, thereby causing the engine to run too hot, and potentially fail if run even very slightly outside of the set parameters.

I should think that if all the people who purchased equipment and who followed proper procedures, had their equipment still fail because of using inferior, or faulty gas (ethynol) then maybe a class action suit could be launched against 1/ the gas companies (for using ethynol), 2/ the equipment manufacturers (for not allowing proper carb adjustment and having the settings to lean) and 3/ the one who I think is most responsible, the EPA for forcing all this in the first place. Or is it very rare that ethynol is the exact cause of engine failure, and that it is most likely user error after all?
 
Another vote for star tron.
It's fall. Friends don't let friends ruin carburetors, by failing to remind them to do something about ethanol.
 
White is pretty much exactly correct on alcohol related issues here. There maybe other things we could disagree on, but not now. My opinion is alcohol is here to stay. During WWII aircraft depended on alcohol and lots of it especially for high altitude efforts. The process is not new. About the only problem with alcohol is when used with heavy concentrations it will attack certain types of rubber blends. It burns clean and cool. For all other uses it does not cause any problems period. I likely have more experience in using many different blends of high performance fuels. One thing really great about two strokes is they do not need high performance fuel. They will run on most any thing. However that does not mean the fuel should be dirty or mixed with diesel. Low octane that is clean fuel in most cases will work fine. When leadership in this country tells the environmentalists to go pound sand then we will start to have more common sense approach to our environment. Thanks
 
I've started using Startron as my preservative/ethanol treatment. It supposedly reacts with the ethanol to "neutralize" its effect. I buy only non-ethanol gas for small engines, but I have heard that non-ethanol means "below a certain percentage" of ethanol. Also, remember that the last person to use the pump probably used regular, so there is ethanol in the gas line from the pump itself to the handle. Some wise forum person recommended putting the first half gallon in your car before filling the portable tank.
 
Whellll.... Mr. Ted Jenkins... (That's a slow southern drawl...)

While you may be 100% right...
None of us follow that kind of protocol with our fuel.
I mix up 2-1/2 gallons, and use it till it runs out. 3-4 months sometimes. With star-tron, the saws run fine. Without, it's all gunned up.
Kinda hot today. I cut a nice black cherry today. Saws ran good. Even the one that's got 3-4 month old gas in it.
Nate
 
Most saws were not designed for high octane so using it does a little harm to performance. This is coming from some one who lives at 6,000 feet. For people who live in states or countries that live closer to sea level I am not sure how crucial this is. Years ago when doing some supercross racing tuning became a nightmare in the coastal communities. I remember at one track being able to see the ocean so it could not be far from sea level. So for most regular grade gasoline with or with out alcohol should work fine unless you feel detonation vibration. Thanks
 
Most saws were not designed for high octane so using it does a little harm to performance. This is coming from some one who lives at 6,000 feet. For people who live in states or countries that live closer to sea level I am not sure how crucial this is. Years ago when doing some supercross racing tuning became a nightmare in the coastal communities. I remember at one track being able to see the ocean so it could not be far from sea level. So for most regular grade gasoline with or with out alcohol should work fine unless you feel detonation vibration. Thanks
I imagine you're right but the high octane is the only non-ethanol gas that you can buy in this area, lucky to find that...
 
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