Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[bsearcey]

What kind of burn times do you get Ed? I know you have the 288, so I'm sure it holds alot more wood than my 224 does. It seems to me you should be going through the wood like gang busters with your secondary air open all the way the whole time. No wonder you are hitting 1400. What are the outside temps of you stove running? It's just my opinion, but I don't think the steel plate is acting as a catalyst for secondary burn. If you are burning as hot as you say you are (air open all the way) you will get very little smoke with or without a cat. Thats probably why your original plate cracked was because of those temps it was being subjected too.

When using a cat, temps can get that high on the probe because it is actually igniting the smoke as it passes through the honeycomb structure. The temperature of the smoke before entering the cat is way lower then what is read at the probe.

From what you've described with your temps at the probe and not using a cat I would imagine your outside stove temps would be in the 1000s, but I know that's not the case. That would be dangerous. I'll have to put the coal plate in somtime and give your method a try and see if I can get the same resluts. It could save me 100 bucks when I need to replace this cat.

 

[Wood Doctor]

What kind of burn times do you get Ed? I know you have the 288, so I'm sure it holds alot more wood than my 224 does. It seems to me you should be going through the wood like gang busters with your secondary air open all the way the whole time. No wonder you are hitting 1400. What are the outside temps of you stove running? It's just my opinion, but I don't think the steel plate is acting as a catalyst for secondary burn. If you are burning as hot as you say you are (air open all the way) you will get very little smoke with or without a cat. Thats probably why your original plate cracked was because of those temps it was being subjected too.

When using a cat, temps can get that high on the probe because it is actually igniting the smoke as it passes through the honeycomb structure. The temperature of the smoke before entering the cat is way lower then what is read at the probe.

From what you've described with your temps at the probe and not using a cat I would imagine your outside stove temps would be in the 1000s, but I know that's not the case. That would be dangerous. I'll have to put the coal plate in sometime and give your method a try and see if I can get the same resluts. It could save me 100 bucks when I need to replace this cat.

+1. Good discussion. Well, I have a feeling that the perforated steel plate is getting close to red hot whenever the flue gases reach 1400 F like they did yesterday and the day before. The top cover plate is probably about 1200 F. I keep two pots of water boiling on it to add moisture back unto the air. Those were ideal combustion conditions--north wind at 15 mph and -10 F.

The whole sequence of events probably eliminates most creosote build up, especially since the wood I burn has been drying no less than a year. I treat the whole process the same as if the cat combustor was in there instead of the steel plate that I made.

It is true that extreme heat probably cracked the original casting for coal burning that came with the stove. That crack really is not why I changed it out. The flue collar that holds the cat combustor fell apart after 21 years, so when I rebuilt that, I went to work on the new steel plate to replace the casting.

I imagine you are right that I am burning more wood than if the cat combustor were there. However, I collect my own wood as an exercise hobby and that tends not to bother me. As far as cost is concerned, a local welding shop can supply those steel plates for about $10 apiece. Square plates can also be ordered on line. Then I drill the holes out with my drill press. That certainly is more reasonable than $100 for the cat.

 

[bsearcey]

I've thought about your setup since this discussion started and I was wondering...What if you used two plates instead of one. Seperate the two plate by 1" to 1.5". Spacing could be accomplished with a bolt through the middle of both plates. The bottom plate would have larger holes than the top plate. Maybe you could squeeze out a little more efficiency and any exhaust in a little longer. I know you said that you've thought about doing smaller holes in your single plate, but thought you may have more deposit issues to deal with. My suggestion may have the same problems, but hopefully with more efficient burn. Just a thought.

 

[Wood Doctor]

That Idea is Intriguing

I've thought about your setup since this discussion started and I was wondering...What if you used two plates instead of one. Seperate the two plate by 1" to 1.5". Spacing could be accomplished with a bolt through the middle of both plates. The bottom plate would have larger holes than the top plate. Maybe you could squeeze out a little more efficiency and any exhaust in a little longer. I know you said that you've thought about doing smaller holes in your single plate, but thought you may have more deposit issues to deal with. My suggestion may have the same problems, but hopefully with more efficient burn. Just a thought.

Holy cow, Brandon! That's a terrifiic idea. And, I already have a second blank plate that I bought at the same time. All I have to do is not make the assembly not too thick so that it becomes hard to remove. Or I can round off the corners for clearance. I think there are 36 holes in the bottom plate that range from 5/16" dia. toward the center to 3/8" dia. The top plate's holes could range from 3/16" dia. to 1/4" dia. and I imagine at least 50 or 60 holes would be feasible.

The final assembly would be about as thick as the cat combustors. You may be onto something here. I think it's worth a try. I would probably connect the two plates with 4 bolts to ensure dead flatness.

What may have occurred this past fall is that the existing bottom steel plate likely became case hardened and will be almost impossible to drill through and thread. However, I won't know that until I try.

Thanks for "thinking outside the box!"

 

[bsearcey]

You're more than welcome Doc. I just hope it actually works good. Like I said before this setup would be alot cheaper then a cat. If it works you and I can share the patent. We can call it "The Poor Man's Cat".

I'm not sure what kind of expansion would take place, but it may be helpful to the operation to put a gasket (thinking flat like for glass) around the edge of the top plate to get a good seal.

 

[Wood Doctor]

You're more than welcome Doc. I just hope it actually works good. Like I said before this setup would be alot cheaper then a cat. If it works you and I can share the patent. We can call it "The Poor Man's Cat".

I'm not sure what kind of expansion would take place, but it may be helpful to the operation to put a gasket (thinking flat like for glass) around the edge of the top plate to get a good seal.

Well, I don't think you want a really good seal. Remember that the exhaust gases have to escape. The idea is to (1) burn the smoke a second time, (2) keep even more heat inside the house, and (3) increase overall burn time. That's why Ray asked if I was sending a lot of smoke up the chimney (which I am not). The hot plate as it stands zaps the smoke.

If this idea works, lots of do-it-yourselfers could make their own "Poor Man's Cat", provided they owned a drill press. Frankly, I think the MFGs of the cat combustors want way too much money for them. The off-season sales tend to prove that. What irritated me most about them is how tough they are to clean. Nothing seems to work very easily. I once even put one in the dishwasher when LOML wasn't looking.

On the other hand, if the Poor Man's Cat works, it would be a snap to give it a weekly cleaning. Hold it under a faucet and run warm water on it for a minute, like I do with the single plate now.

 

[bsearcey]

The gasket is there to ensure that all smoke passes through the PMC. Similar to how standard cats are gasketed.

I was just kidding about the patenting. I'll get rich some other way .

I don't even want to start on the cost of cats. I had to replace the cat in my wifes car and it cost like $750 just for the cat. People actually cut them out of cars because they can resale them for so much. I feel pretty fortunate that for my stove the cat only costs $100. I've seen them more than twice as much for other stoves.

I agree. I haven't had my cat for long, but cleaning is kind of a pain. Especially if you try and do it good. The PMC would be nice and easy. Shoot you could even sand blast it without worrying about damaging it. Can't say that about standard cats.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Brandon said. "The gasket is there to ensure that all smoke passes through the PMC. Similar to how standard cats are gasketed."
------------------
Interesting. "All" is a powerful word. To ensure that, the PMG would have to seal all over, and technically speaking, it would never be removable and cleanable. Thus it would quickly clog up and require a service technician to come to the house and clean it, or the homeowner would have to figure out how to do it himself, which might be impossible. Or it would have to be replaced entirely. Sounds like the $750 Cat in your car, doesn't it?

So, the best bet for our PMG is to make it both removable and cleanable, and yet do its job to take care of say, 90% of the smoke and retain heat in the stove while doing so? I think that is a workable objective. Thus, I am now drawing up plans for the next steel plate that will fasten above the one I showed here. I think it might increase my single plate's effectiveness by about 50%, I can do it with cheap steel parts that you can buy at the hardware (or TSC) store, and that makes it worth it to me.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[raybonz]

Well, I don't think you want a really good seal. Remember that the exhaust gases have to escape. The idea is to (1) burn the smoke a second time, (2) keep even more heat inside the house, and (3) increase overall burn time. That's why Ray asked if I was sending a lot of smoke up the chimney (which I am not). The hot plate as it stands zaps the smoke.

If this idea works, lots of do-it-yourselfers could make their own "Poor Man's Cat", provided they owned a drill press. Frankly, I think the MFGs of the cat combustors want way too much money for them. The off-season sales tend to prove that. What irritated me most about them is how tough they are to clean. Nothing seems to work very easily. I once even put one in the dishwasher when LOML wasn't looking.

On the other hand, if the Poor Man's Cat works, it would be a snap to give it a weekly cleaning. Hold it under a faucet and run warm water on it for a minute, like I do with the single plate now.

My cat never gets dirty and I have had only hole plug in the cat.. For cleaning I simply vacuum it with the brush attachment.. Maybe cuz I burn 99% seasoned oak? This cat around 10 yrs old and still performing efficiently.. Cats are costly to make as they are treated with platinum which is very expensive, even more than gold.. The advantage of a cat is it lights off around 600 degrees so it takes less fuel to burn the smoke and reduce creosote... If you run the stove hot like you're doing creosote should not be a problem, plate or no plate.. If I cranked my stove that hot my house would be 90 degrees and my wife would kick me out lol.. In my opinion $100.00 for a cat is a bargain and in my case costs me just $10.00 per yr. and saves me lots of wood plus less hauling, stacking,storing and carting.. One place online sells a new style cat for around $80.00 never tried them so don't know how good they are..
If interested here is the link http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/prod...els-Before-1992-6-in-Round-Canned_291634.html


Ray

 

[Jason123]

Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.

Doc,
You might be right, I will have to try your technique. I still get good temperature readings on the probe when using the cat, usually between 800 and 1400 degrees depending on the amount of wood/air I have in it. And the smoke seems to be white and much less than if I am not using the cat. But the technique I use to really crank up the heat, gets more heat in the house. So the cat could be bad.

The cat looks good to me, no cracks or anything. However it could be 20 years old for all I know, since I am not the original owner. Is there a real good way to tell?

I will give your technique a try, and it makes sense. According to the owners manual (pg 19 in the one bsearcey posted) if the smoke gets above 1100 degrees, smoke will burn. The cat starts burning the smoke at 500-600 degrees because of the special metals on it.

So the cat can get more efficiency at lower temperatures, but if you keep the temperature high, you will still get the same efficiency. At least the way I am thinking about it.

thanks

 

[raybonz]

Dropping in to say hello

Too bad this thread died as it was interesting.. Noticed my fixed center grate (not the shakers) is bowed up and cracked so I need to replace it for about $40.00.. I think I overfired it many moons ago and caused this to happen.. Aside from that it is running well and my seasoned wood supply is down to nothing.. Next years supply is looking good so far and should be ready for Fall 2010! I love burning oak but it takes 2-3 yrs to season but worth the wait!

Ray

 

[LesW]

Yes, i'm just about out of dry wood too, though I have many cords of unseasoned stuff. Ice storms down here cause the loss of a couple trees a year, and all that goes on the woodpile. But right now it's outside and uncovered. It never dries until I move it in.

What a horrible winter this was. Weather seems to have broken though...dafodils are blooming, and the fescue is greening up. Not that it's warm....had a little snow today. But at least the polar jet stream is retreating up north.

About time!

Les

 

[raybonz]

Yes, i'm just about out of dry wood too, though I have many cords of unseasoned stuff. Ice storms down here cause the loss of a couple trees a year, and all that goes on the woodpile. But right now it's outside and uncovered. It never dries until I move it in.

What a horrible winter this was. Weather seems to have broken though...dafodils are blooming, and the fescue is greening up. Not that it's warm....had a little snow today. But at least the polar jet stream is retreating up north.

About time!

Les

Yes the south got all the snow we normally would get and I know how it sucks lol... I don't mind the dry snow as it is easy to move with a snowblower but the heavy wet stuff is a nightmare.. It's heavy windswept rain here until sometime tomorrow.. Thanx for replying!!

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Glad to see the Federal Airtight club members made it through the winter.

My fixed grate was like that when I bought the stove ray. In fact it was actually broken in two. I had a neighbor fix it, but it didn't hold. I ordered a new one that was supposed to fit my stove, but alas it must be for a later model than mine. It should be relatively simply for me to add some extentions on it (too short) and that should fix it.

I ran out of wood at the end of February. Acutally During the whole season I was scrounging. I kind of put the cart before the horse this year and had the stove, but no wood. Once I ran out in Feb I just decided to focus on next year (and year after supply) instead of scrounging for anything to burn now. Mostly I was burning stuff that was standing dead. However, as I'm sure you guys know even the dead stuff has a high moisture content. It does dry faster than green wood though. Just not fast enough. I'm pretty sure burning that stuff is what killed my cat. I know I know ray. The damn thing has begun to crumble. It started in a small area, but has since started to spread. While I was still burning it would still engage, but I'm sure it won't last that long next season. I'll accept it as my first year unprepardness and general newbieness, but nothing over 20% mc for my stove from now on.

 

[raybonz]

Glad to see the Federal Airtight club members made it through the winter.

My fixed grate was like that when I bought the stove ray. In fact it was actually broken in two. I had a neighbor fix it, but it didn't hold. I ordered a new one that was supposed to fit my stove, but alas it must be for a later model than mine. It should be relatively simply for me to add some extentions on it (too short) and that should fix it.

I ran out of wood at the end of February. Acutally During the whole season I was scrounging. I kind of put the cart before the horse this year and had the stove, but no wood. Once I ran out in Feb I just decided to focus on next year (and year after supply) instead of scrounging for anything to burn now. Mostly I was burning stuff that was standing dead. However, as I'm sure you guys know even the dead stuff has a high moisture content. It does dry faster than green wood though. Just not fast enough. I'm pretty sure burning that stuff is what killed my cat. I know I know ray. The damn thing has begun to crumble. It started in a small area, but has since started to spread. While I was still burning it would still engage, but I'm sure it won't last that long next season. I'll accept it as my first year unprepardness and general newbieness, but nothing over 20% mc for my stove from now on.

Yup survived it so far here OK.. Did replace my cat and found this site http://www.inandoutlifestyles.com/coduwostcaco.html has a good price on our cat and free shipping too.. I paid $130.00 + tax at local dealer so $118.00 shipped is a good deal.. Live and learn, people that never make a mistake never do anything.. Once I replace my center fixed grate I should be OK but I am living with it til next fall...

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Here is another site with combustors given to me by jakekells. I know you already have one ray, but I'm going to go ahead and post the link for other users. These things are cheap, but I'm not sure about their functionality. Instead of the grid structure they look almost like a sponge. I have my doubts about them as far as keeping clean, but you'll never know until you try. I'm tempted. They do come with a pretty good warranty.

http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/products/consolidated-dutchwest-1

 

[raybonz]

Here is another site with combustors given to me by jakekells. I know you already have one ray, but I'm going to go ahead and post the link for other users. These things are cheap, but I'm not sure about their functionality. Instead of the grid structure they look almost like a sponge. I have my doubts about them as far as keeping clean, but you'll never know until you try. I'm tempted. They do come with a pretty good warranty.

http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/products/consolidated-dutchwest-1

Over at **********/forums many have experienced issues with this company.. They did not respond to emails or deliver the product for a very long time etc.. Additionally the cat plugged up easily and being only 1" high difficult to get out.. I know what works and stick with it.. Condars and Applied Ceramics make a good product.. I have used Condars right along with no problems... Check out the forum I listed you will enjoy that forum as well.. This forum is great for woodcutting and hearth is great for wood burning..

Ray

PS: Applied Ceramics warranty appears to be a bit better http://firecatcombustors.com/warranty.htm but are more expensive... Cats rarely fail if used correctly so I never paid much attention to the warranty..

 

[bsearcey]

10-4. My thoughts exactly about that cat (performance wise). Definitely stay away from that. I'm emailing condar right now about my cat to see if I'm eligible for the warranty replacement. I doubt it since my issues are probably related to thermal shock, but it is worth a try. Thanks for the info, and I'm a member at ********** too. I frequent this site more.

 

[raybonz]

10-4. My thoughts exactly about that cat (performance wise). Definitely stay away from that. I'm emailing condar right now about my cat to see if I'm eligible for the warranty replacement. I doubt it since my issues are probably related to thermal shock, but it is worth a try. Thanks for the info, and I'm a member at ********** too. I frequent this site more.

Condar's warranty is prorated, how old is your cat? I am pretty sure it will be covered.. Only tell them it is crumbling and you should be OK.. At the very least you should get some compensation..

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Condar_Warranty.html

Ray

 

[bsearcey]

Sent the email. Hopefully they'll help me out. This was my first season with that cat.