four man hrs. per cord.
- Thread starter Sandhill Crane
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Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
It takes roughly 36 years to cut and deliver 35,000 cords, with a fee million bf of logs thrown in.
I always figure that every truckload (about 2/3 cord) of split firewood that I deliver requires at least four hours of work. Add two more for that many bundles -- about 40 to the truckload. So, in my case that equates to about 6 man hours per processed cord. Now, add in the time for delivery on top of all that. Heck, it takes me three hours just to split a full cord.
I have always planned to start right from the shop, go to the bush, cut down a couple big beech, skid, buck, split and pile. To see how long it would take. Just haven't got there yet. It would be tight to get it done in four hours.
I'm just a home heating firewood hack. Don't have any big $ equipment. By the time I cut it, haul it home and then split and stack I've got way more than 4 hours per cord into it!
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Thanks for the real-world figures, Sandhill Crane. I split about 5 cords from pre-cut rounds in one day - sun up to sun down - shortly after I got my Super Split, but had to take the next few days off ;-)
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
The regular super sacks I get for free, but they would rot the wood. I use them for sawdust. Make 2-3 bags a week. Sell it for $50/bag.
~$10/per for 250 vented bags isn't bad. I paid $194 for 6.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
No pallets needed for them with fertilizer or sawdust, dunno about firewood though. I bought a few vented bags to try. They just came in yesterday.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
I charge $50 more a cord. I do around 500 cords a year, nothing that big.
Don't haul non-processor wood to the yard. Sell it as log truck loads to others that can use it or don't even cut it down.
Pine? No pine here. Have spruce, but I might sell 20 cords a year of that.. almost not worth messing with other than its the cull from the sawmill which is about 40ft from my processor.
JeffreyZirkle
ArboristSite Member
Time factor is a killer, 4 hours per cord start to finish is not bad, although I am spoiled in my ways. I have a Stihl 880 with a 32 in bar, I cut blocks of wood all day long, takes me 20 minutes to load the blocks, drop them off on my way home at my wood yard, 1 hour and 15 minutes to split 3/4 cord, 20 minutes to load and then deliver. I only charge 75.00 a load for standard grade hardwood and I charge 100.00 a load for seasoned, my seasoned wood is not seasoned till it has been down a min of 18 months.
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For the past 5 years have been working with the USDA in a area that is pretty remote. It takes me about 40 minutes on the freeway to get to my USDA gate then 2 1/2 hours on the trail to get to my 500 cord stash. Most of the time 4 cords have to be cut to have 3 cords ready for loading. In 3 or 4 weeks of cutting can get together enough wood to haul for most of the season. The other day it took 11 hours of very hard cutting to get my 3 cords done, but was very happy when nothing breaks. My cutting area is very nice in that the view is special with huge array of wild life and no visitors. The cutting sessions last usually 10-14 days at a time and then break camp. A typical load takes about 3 hours to load and strap down. They consist of just under 2 cords. Splitting takes between 1 and 1 1/2 hours per cord. then 1/2 hour to load and stack. The typical delivery takes 2 hours with stacking. The prices vary just a little with softwood consistently at $300 and Hardwood at $600. So if I can maintain a $200 a day profit margin I am completely OK with this schedule. At a pace of 60 or 70 cords a year this fits me well. This comes out to be 3 hours of cutting, 3 hours of hauling, 2 hours of loading, 1 plus hours of splitting, 2 hours for delivery, and then to bed for a great night of rest. One cord for one days labor. My waiting list is always growing, but then after 40 years it should. Back in the day when timber sales were open it could be done at a much faster rate. There were several months that were averaging 2 cords a day per person with as many as 6 people working on a crew. However the profit margin always seemed a little less and with more stress keeping everybody safe. Thanks
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
Yeah safety is one reason to have equipment. Using a feller buncher vs hand felling for example.
I dont sell any wood, so I do things a little different than most. I take free wood when I can get it. Usually in log lengths and they load it on my dump trailer. I'll buck it a little at a time, mostly when I am checking out a saw, sharpen saw, cut a few rounds to make sure its cutting, rebuild a saw, cut a few rounds to tune. I got a buddy with a 390xp that I am always doing some welding or other fixes for, I tell him to bring his saw and turn him loose in the wood pile while i work on his stuff. When I get a big pile of rounds ready to split, I drag out the splitter, it hasnt been cranked since last May, and split for maybe 30 min at a time, then go do something else. If my brother mentions fishing, the firewood can wait.
Last two seasons, I was looking at surgeries and had to get my wood done while I was able. I called my buddy with the saw to buck, and got my boys and grandson to help split, We bucked and split about 5 cords in about 4 hrs. I let it stay piled up most of the summer and stacked it under the shed in Nov. Its amazing how much wood you can stack if you use a fel to scoop up the wood and carry it to the wood shed. Put two young boys in the shed unloading from the bucket and stacking. I would guess it took maybe two hours to stack.
It seems about everybody around here has gone into the firewood business. Most cut and split in the woods and sell the same day. No such thing as seasoned wood and prices vary from $50 to $100 pickup load, about 1/3 cord or a rick. They usually sell out pretty quick and when the weather gets bad, they cant get to the wood and stop selling. I really think a good firewood business would do good here. Someone that could produce a lot of wood and work the business year round, build a reputation and stick with it. I thought about it many times, but that would just get in the way of going fishing.
Last two seasons, I was looking at surgeries and had to get my wood done while I was able. I called my buddy with the saw to buck, and got my boys and grandson to help split, We bucked and split about 5 cords in about 4 hrs. I let it stay piled up most of the summer and stacked it under the shed in Nov. Its amazing how much wood you can stack if you use a fel to scoop up the wood and carry it to the wood shed. Put two young boys in the shed unloading from the bucket and stacking. I would guess it took maybe two hours to stack.
It seems about everybody around here has gone into the firewood business. Most cut and split in the woods and sell the same day. No such thing as seasoned wood and prices vary from $50 to $100 pickup load, about 1/3 cord or a rick. They usually sell out pretty quick and when the weather gets bad, they cant get to the wood and stop selling. I really think a good firewood business would do good here. Someone that could produce a lot of wood and work the business year round, build a reputation and stick with it. I thought about it many times, but that would just get in the way of going fishing.
I was a union carpenter, loc. 100. Grand Rapids/Muskegon, MI.
Which means commercial and industrial work, and a lot of traveling to keep working.
Hospitals and satellite medical buildings; malls; nuclear, gas and coal fire power plants; box stores; paper mills; water treatment plants; multi story retirement complexes and motels, casinos, etc. Grunt work to trim; scaffold building to 130' for other trades; forming concrete structures, rigging, etc. Union laborer before that, mostly concrete road and bridgework. Then took a cut in pay, and got into a four year carpenter apprenticeship program. Honest living, but not always steady work. Recession was lean, and we took a pay cut when we were working. Now things seem to be booming in southwest Michigan. Had a chance to go back to work this coming Wednesday at a nuclear power plant. I'm 63, and my lungs aren't what they used to be. Scare tissue and all. Passed on the job. Day in day out, it's a young mans game. Hard to pass on the money, but reality settles in. Already drug tested for chauffeurs license. Have to retest and pass the nuclear program again. And for safety issues ..., I would have shave to accommodate a rescue respirator. Shaving...yeah, that's been a while too...
This is exactly what I did for several years. Because it makes sense.
However, I would encourage each of you to try what ever comes to mind...even if it doesn't make sense. Just try it.
Putting my staging table aside was the best thing I've done this year to increase, and ease, production.
Using scaffold with the conveyor worked okay for stacking, but was a bit dangerous when it jammed and then broke loose, pieces shooting out the front. I tried the TW-6 (for sale) in front of the conveyor last week, without much luck, and split into a pile instead. And I tried wood racks for several years. I have three to four K in those racks and no longer use them (for sale, cheap).
I tried the SuperSplit sight unseen. It's a keeper.
Now, after several years consideration, I'm trying the Posch. I'm guessing it saves me almost two hours per cord stacking (assuming two and a half hours to stack a cord). It also saves the 'effort' or labor on the body of stacking. And the need for racks or handling to where it would be stacked. This also allows me to become less fatigued and enjoy doing a little more firewood each day, working alone. I can easily move and load the wood for delivery.
I considered firewood bags. Totes. Stackable pallets (Steel pallet bases with steel tube uprights) and fabricating sides, and the plastic Row-Packs (collapsible crates). The amount they held in loose splits and the cost just did not factor as affordable. Each system has its quirks. So what works for me may not work for you. And vise-versa.
Regardless, this forum is great. It is how I learned of the SS, one of my favorite tools. I appreciate everything people share because it make me take a second look at what I'm doing. And some times, like KiwiBro's post #27, makes me laugh.
T. Mainus
ArboristSite Operative
Interesting, I've been swinging a hammer since I was 16. Served my apprenticeship right out of high school and the rest is history. Non union, mostly residential, custom homes and condos, never been laid off even through the bubble. Quit my job 2 years ago and took over the family storage shed business full time. We build 100-150 backyard sheds a year. We do firewood in the 3 months that we are not building sheds. Body is pretty much shot. My young nephew said he wants to be a carpenter like his uncle, I asked him what he wants to do when he hits 40 because it is a young mans game.
My process is a little different than yours, but I think your time is about right. I think most people under estimate/ over sell how long it takes to process firewood. Even with all my rounds cut ahead of time and with a TW-5 for a splitter, you are hard pressed to split a cord of wood in a hour like they all advertise you can. And you might be able to do it once, but then you pay for it the next day with how sore your body is. We switched to the bags at the end of the season this last year. Our bags will hold a face cord of wood. You have to fill them as full as you can but I am confident in the amount that we would be selling to call it an honest face cord. My best day of splitting with the bags this year I think was 8 bags/ almost 3 cords. It takes me about 45 minutes to fill a bag. We split our wood on the small size, most wood even gets re-split after it goes through the 4 way so it might take us little longer to split a cord of wood. It takes time to move the bags and get reset, the phone is always ringing etc.. it all takes time. Like someone else said, quality goes down with the processor. Thats why my next upgrade would be the power split vertical splitter. I think if you had a processor and you had to re-split pieces that would negate any advantage the processor would give you. At least with the power-split you could keep production up and quality would not suffer. We store the bags on pallets up of the ground. We have some local guys selling the nice plastic pallets, I am biting the bullet and stocking up on them now when I can afford them. They should last forever. We also invested heavily this year in equipment. New 24' conveyor and we finally got our forklift for the shop. The forklift was bought more for our storage shed business, but the firewood end also weighed heavily in the decision to buy the machine we did. We have been using a 1966 John Deere 3020 that you have to fill with hydraulic fluid every day but it works. Would not be worth fixing though if anything major went wrong with it, that was our reasoning for the forklift purchase. The 3020 also would not lift the bags when full either. We used the 3020 for moving logs mostly.
T. Mainus
ArboristSite Operative
That is why we tried the bags this year as well. The time spent stacking firewood and then loading the trailer for a sale was to me the most time consuming part of the process. It was also the part where you could actually change something and save some time. Until I have a 5 acre concrete parking lot to just pile firewood in low piles that would season decent and then you could load up with a skid steer/wheel loader, I think the bags will work for us. How have your Posch pallets been doing while seasoning? Any tip over yet. I'll be surprised if we don't lose a couple of bags depending on how much the wood actually drys out over the summer.
OH YES! But only because of double stacking them. Three pallets last year. Two were top ones, and they screwed up one bottom one.
This year I have not counted yet. Last week was the first, after trying to pick them with the lift before they fell. Maybe six in all by the time it's cleaned up.
The top ones tip, and the bottom ones split open opposite the compression side.
However, I have never tipped one over by moving it with the lift. They are very solid on the pallet. Only by double stacking, and then over a period of time and settling have any tipped.
Actually, if the rain hold off tomorrow, that's what I'll be doing. Picking up splits and throwing them in the trailer, and running them up the conveyor and through the Posch again. I have some 4 x 4 post screw jacks (soon to be returned to me tomorrow) to support the seriously tipped ones, and level them out to get forks in the pallets.
For delivery I do cover each pallet before loading and strapping on the flatbed. This may not be necessary, but is a precaution against losing a piece to a passing motorcycle or windshield. It avoids the, "I wish I would have..." scenario. The covers slip on easily and velcro fasten. Unloading by hand is a slow process. Show on the truck is six pallets, or one and one half cords.
Two tipped on top. The bottom ones probably need redone, as does the one I did pull off with the lift, upsetting the others. Top second row, the one on the right has tipped over also. Bit of a mess. No big deal, and I found it is seasoning very well. Single stacking this years wood. (two rows of fourteen; one of four; one of one; 8 1/4 cord in this photo; but I've done another cord or so.)
None of the pallets in this group have tipped over. (above two photos)
T. Mainus
ArboristSite Operative
I've thought about covering the bag tops as well. Going to see how they do this year and maybe next year we will start doing that.
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