Fuel Injection saws? Stihl is going for it.

[sawfun]

Well, for cars fuel injection made for better cold starts given todays poor fuel quality. Eventually it will find its way to saws I should think, but a ways off for now. I tend to either want true fuel injection or old style carbs. I am not fond of the part electronic/electric carbs. I had a couple of eighties cars that had those they would do crazy things at times.

 

[chads]

I think I will take a wait and see like I do on cars.
I like to let them figure it out on someone else's car for a few years.
After they get it right I will get one for myself.
Sometimes I have to wait a while till it gets worked out.
Chad

 

[Ken Tucker]

Fuel injection changed the way Harley's sounded. I hope they don't make the saws sound that way. Might be my ears but the saws they make now sound like a fishing reel getting the line dragged out of it by a passing boat.

 

[Jimmy in NC]

What's wrong with carburetors?
They've done just fine for years

when you have multiple operators and unskilled operators.... FI is a gift from God.


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[aesmith]

What's wrong with carburetors?
They've done just fine for years

If they can directly inject into the combustion chamber it has two big benefits for two strokes. If you time the injection after the exhaust port closes then there's no fresh mixture going out of the exhaust. Secondly with no fuel in the air that passes through the crankcase it uses much less oil, since the oil isn't washed out by fuel. Both those features make the engines cleaner and more economical. On the downside there needs to be a different way to lubricate the crank and rod.

 

[Chris-PA]

If they can directly inject into the combustion chamber it has two big benefits for two strokes. If you time the injection after the exhaust port closes then there's no fresh mixture going out of the exhaust. Secondly with no fuel in the air that passes through the crankcase it uses much less oil, since the oil isn't washed out by fuel. Both those features make the engines cleaner and more economical. On the downside there needs to be a different way to lubricate the crank and rod.

But the Stihl system does not.

 

[redtractor]

If they can directly inject into the combustion chamber it has two big benefits for two strokes. .

The fuel is injected into the crankcase like a carb would. The idea is to tighten control of the fuel delivery.

 

[Chris-PA]

The fuel is injected into the crankcase like a carb would. The idea is to tighten control of the fuel delivery.

What does this mean? It doesn't have any different system of measuring fuel mixture than a feedback carb, fuel distribution is not an issue with a single cylinder, and fuel atomization is probably not an issue when injected into the case (and carbs can atomize fuel very well too).

 

[redtractor]

I don't understand the whats or hows but just reading between the lines only narrows down to the fuel control. They wouldn't put time & effort into it if there weren't advantages over the older tech to reach a goal of performance or economy or bowing to the EPA.

 

[Saw Dr.]

Quite a few really negative reviews on Stihl's sure about the 500I. It seems as though they won't start when they're hot.

Brad, quite a bit of that is folks who don't understand them. The "primer" on there is just that. You MUST pump it before every start, even hot. That is how's the fuel pressure is built to get the thing going with no electronic fuel pump. Most hot start issues on those are operator error.

 

[hseII]

Brad, quite a bit of that is folks who don't understand them. The "primer" on there is just that. You MUST pump it before every start, even hot. That is how's the fuel pressure is built to get the thing going with no electronic fuel pump. Most hot start issues on those are operator error.

It is nice to be around intelligent people

 

[a. palmer jr.]

I think the idea really is to get the maintenance out of the saw user's hands and into the dealership, like they did with cars. It's about money, not about making the saw better...

 

[Chris-PA]

I think the idea really is to get the maintenance out of the saw user's hands and into the dealership, like they did with cars. It's about money, not about making the saw better...

And yet the injected cars are better. And I like carburetors and know my way around them.

But this does not hold for Stihl's fuel injection, and I don't believe you will see it on many chainsaws. There simply aren't enough (any?) significant advantages to justify the additional cost/complexity, except perhaps to German engineers who think more complexity in a design is a goal in and of itself. I don't even think the possibility of avoiding royalties would justify it.

I can think of only one possible advantage of injection into the case, and that would be if you could inject directly into a long transfer runner. You might be able to time the injection pulse to achieve a delayed stratification effect. But even at that it would only be as good as a strato engine with AT, which is still much less complex and expensive.

 

[LowVolt]

The M-tronic monitors and adjusts the mixture of the carburetor electronically. It is offered on four saws currently available in the U.S. the MS241,261,441 and 661.

362cm also!

 

[a. palmer jr.]

And yet the injected cars are better. And I like carburetors and know my way around them.

But this does not hold for Stihl's fuel injection, and I don't believe you will see it on many chainsaws. There simply aren't enough (any?) significant advantages to justify the additional cost/complexity, except perhaps to German engineers who think more complexity in a design is a goal in and of itself. I don't even think the possibility of avoiding royalties would justify it.

I can think of only one possible advantage of injection into the case, and that would be if you could inject directly into a long transfer runner. You might be able to time the injection pulse to achieve a delayed stratification effect. But even at that it would only be as good as a strato engine with AT, which is still much less complex and expensive.

Most of German designed things are more complicated than it need be. It's like their engineers are over-achievers..I'd rather have something I can work on because when I'm cutting wood (or grass) I don't want to have to stop and take my equipment into the dealership and wait for two weeks while they work on something else when I can spend a few minutes and fix it myself and get back to work..
The injected cars are better, like you said, until you have trouble with them, then for most people it's off to the dealer and wait for your car to be fixed and then pay a big repair bill.

 

[Time's Standing Stihl]

The M-tronic monitors and adjusts the mixture of the carburetor electronically. It is offered on four saws currently available in the U.S. the MS241,261,441 and 661.

You missed the high and mighty 362!

 

[Franny K]

If they can directly inject into the combustion chamber it has two big benefits for two strokes. If you time the injection after the exhaust port closes then there's no fresh mixture going out of the exhaust. Secondly with no fuel in the air that passes through the crankcase it uses much less oil, since the oil isn't washed out by fuel. Both those features make the engines cleaner and more economical. On the downside there needs to be a different way to lubricate the crank and rod.

And the lubrication of the lower end? It is done in outboard motors and snowmobiles. Gasoline, bar oil, engine oil tanks? What pressure does the fuel injection operate at?

 

[Franny K]

Most of German designed things are more complicated than it need be. It's like their engineers are over-achievers..I'd rather have something I can work on because when I'm cutting wood (or grass) I don't want to have to stop and take my equipment into the dealership and wait for two weeks while they work on something else when I can spend a few minutes and fix it myself and get back to work..
The injected cars are better, like you said, until you have trouble with them, then for most people it's off to the dealer and wait for your car to be fixed and then pay a big repair bill.

Let's not unfairly pick on the Germans here. There was some water super saturated gasoline last year or the year before and it was the Toyota dealerships handing out $2000 bills to their customers.

With the number of saws folks on here have, what is the big deal if the most modern one is down for a while? Surely folks making a living with a chainsaw have another one nearby as chances a saw getting squashed have to be many times greater than an automobile going down for mechanical issues.

 

[Freakingstang]

Most of German designed things are more complicated than it need be. It's like their engineers are over-achievers..I'd rather have something I can work on because when I'm cutting wood (or grass) I don't want to have to stop and take my equipment into the dealership and wait for two weeks while they work on something else when I can spend a few minutes and fix it myself and get back to work..
The injected cars are better, like you said, until you have trouble with them, then for most people it's off to the dealer and wait for your car to be fixed and then pay a big repair bill.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. When was the last time a 1960-1970's something vehicle went 300K miles without an overhaul? those motor were done at 70-90K miles max. or how about 10K mile spark plug changes and points and condensers at 15K miles, or coils every year because the points gaps weren't set right. Technology in oil, technology in fuel delivery to not wash the rings out of the cylinder, technology in metallurgy, technology in electronics to make starting easier, not to mention double the horsepower and torque, not to mention the double and triple MPG increase. Yup, they are horrible, because you don't understand them.

i get it that you are a simpleton and are happy with a 1968 F100 pickup for all your daily commutes and hauling capabilities. There's this thing called the EPA. manufactures have to abide by government regulations weather they like it or not, and that isn't just cars and trucks, its outdoor power equipment, construction equipment, diesel machinery, chainsaws, etc. They aren't complicated when you spend a little time to figure out what makes them different or how they operate compared to your 1967 sears suburban lawn mower.

 

[Franny K]

But this does not hold for Stihl's fuel injection, and I don't believe you will see it on many chainsaws. There simply aren't enough (any?) significant advantages to justify the additional cost/complexity ,snip I don't even think the possibility of avoiding royalties would justify it.

I can think of only one possible advantage of injection into the case, and that would be if you could inject directly into a long transfer runner. You might be able to time the injection pulse to achieve a delayed stratification effect. But even at that it would only be as good as a strato engine with AT, which is still much less complex and expensive.

I think the fuel injection would eliminate some rather excessive warm up times I read about here with the AT

I had envisioned the dirt bike companies paying royalties to Sthil. Not sure how this plays out but thanks for mentioning it.