Green Ash dilemma - take it down or not?

[ropensaddle]

Our service is single phase. The closest 3ph is 1/8 mile away and would've cost well over $10K to bring in or I would've done it. Instead, I went with variable frequency drives on all my machines; which was fortuitous because we're too far away from 3ph up North as well, so I'm ready for the relocation plug-n-play there now.

Pole to pole single phase distribution has one leg hot across the top and that wire is uninsulated (might not even be in the pics due to angle), those are connected to the single input tap on a step-down transformer which then makes 2 legs of single phase that are 180 degrees out from each other, and those lines are then run to the service run along with a central tap which becomes the neutral/return leg.

So from the top down on our utility poles you have:

High voltage uninsulated - single wire 13Kv (or thereabouts)

5ft lower you have the neutral, and two 120v legs of 240, which are insulated

2ft below that you have the phone/cable/internet bundles.

The low voltage signal wires are about 12' up from ground level.


13Kv is enough to make refried beans out of the burrito you ate for lunch! I'm well aware of the dangers should something hit it.

I also don't envision this take-down as getting into that line, but if I can get them to do it and not expose myself to the risk at all, that is the path we'll take. I can watch them remove it and maybe learn some things. That's win-win for me.

Jim I spent over 20 years as a line clearance foreman, Single phase is 4100 to 7200 v every state I have worked and yes they are pole to pole but normally do not use a cross arm. The neutral and 2 240 is called open wire secondary's which are 440 to 880 v and if yours has been rubberized it is to protect the lines when they slap together. It is not insulation and neither is the protective coating on triplex. Many people think it is insulated and even some lineman call it that but it is NOT insulation. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen the protection cracked!

 

[ropensaddle]

EAB doesn't leave anything. I have walked a LOT of woodlands around NW Ohio where ash is a major component. There are no ash left (on a very rare occasion I'll find a 10-12" dbh tree that isn't great yet...but they still have sign of infestation. Treatment of yard trees is a viable option...start early if you want it to work!

I think this is one time fumigation may have had merit I worked in Indy and Michigan and remember many nice ash there. We have some here but they are spotty at best! Shame to see a bug ruin all those nice trees.

 

[Jim Timber]

Jim I spent over 20 years as a line clearance foreman, Single phase is 4100 to 7200 v every state I have worked and yes they are pole to pole but normally do not use a cross arm. The neutral and 2 240 is called open wire secondary's which are 440 to 880 v and if yours has been rubberized it is to protect the lines when they slap together. It is not insulation and neither is the protective coating on triplex. Many people think it is insulated and even some lineman call it that but it is NOT insulation. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen the protection cracked!

I'm not saying I'd trust it. Just that it's not bare.

The lineman who came to do the transfer of my service entrance had been working on the I-35 bridge collapse the days prior and might have mis-spoke about the voltages here. I know the distribution voltage up North is somewhere around 6,5-7,2K as I asked about being metered at it. So I could run lines at peak voltage to all corners of my property and then step down. They said no with some emphasis added.

You're correct that actual measured voltage vs rated voltage is higher. 240v will routinely indicate 330+ with a meter. I just go of common reference voltage because it's easier to follow. 208, 480, 600, etc are all utilized in 3ph industrial services here, so that confuses people when you start saying voltage read vs the voltage common use. I tend to only talk to people at this level when discussing industrial applications. My "shop oriented" buddies eyes glaze over when I start telling them to get 3ph motors and VFD's to save money. The little plastic box with a control panel might as well be voodoo from the expressions I get trying to explain how easy they are to use.

Every time I stop a VFD driven motor it lowers my power bill. For some unknown reason, the regenerative braking scrambles the brains of our digital service meter and it thinks we're pumping back more than we used. The more I work, the cheaper our bill gets.

 

[bikemike]

You know all the ash hysteria over a bug is a shame. I do realize its killed a lot of them off I just wonder if the chainsaw gangs have wiped the rest out premature and the bug took blame ?

Oh I can't say we took em and blame the bugs. But they did try to treat it like a wildfire years ago but that didn't work either. Evolution takes its toll what are they going for next once they have no ash

 

[bikemike]

I'm not saying I'd trust it. Just that it's not bare.

The lineman who came to do the transfer of my service entrance had been working on the I-35 bridge collapse the days prior and might have mis-spoke about the voltages here. I know the distribution voltage up North is somewhere around 6,5-7,2K as I asked about being metered at it. So I could run lines at peak voltage to all corners of my property and then step down. They said no with some emphasis added.

You're correct that actual measured voltage vs rated voltage is higher. 240v will routinely indicate 330+ with a meter. I just go of common reference voltage because it's easier to follow. 208, 480, 600, etc are all utilized in 3ph industrial services here, so that confuses people when you start saying voltage read vs the voltage common use. I tend to only talk to people at this level when discussing industrial applications. My "shop oriented" buddies eyes glaze over when I start telling them to get 3ph motors and VFD's to save money. The little plastic box with a control panel might as well be voodoo from the expressions I get trying to explain how easy they are to use.

Every time I stop a VFD driven motor it lowers my power bill. For some unknown reason, the regenerative braking scrambles the brains of our digital service meter and it thinks we're pumping back more than we used. The more I work, the cheaper our bill gets.

That keeps up they might put you on the grid lol

 

[Jim Timber]

^^^ It just makes the Mrs.' affection for air conditioning a tiny bit more affordable. We're a loooooong way from being profitable on false meter readings.

 

[Jason Douglas]

EAB will show up before you know it's there and becoming a problem. Only ones left in central Ohio have been treated repeatedly.

 

[ATH]

From what I've read, the borers do most damage to mature/older trees. Certain younger trees have been found to escape the infestation so it's not like Dutch Elm where it wipes out everything. In a mature stand/area (like my neighborhood), it's certainly capable of severe impact.

I forget how young the trees needed to be for them to be undesirable, but want to say it was like <10dbh. Our smallest tree is about 15", so all 4 of them are prime targets if/when the borers show up. The metro is a quarantine area for ash wood, but I haven't heard much about infestations. Maybe I'm just not aware of them.
.......

EAB will attack about any size ash tree. The trees need to be about 2"-3" diameter before they larvae can complete their development...so in that regard the younger trees are not killed by EAB.

I see American Elm trees by the thousands in woodlands (and fewer in neighborhoods, but they are still all over). Most are 6-10" dbh when they are killed. Juvenile trees hold some resistance - that is about when they "normally" lose that. A relatively few make it into the upper 20" range - every now and then I'll find one pushing 30". A few years ago, USFS put out a request for surviving elm trees. They wanted trees over 24" in a natural setting with other DED killed trees nearby. The thought was they would find a few that would have potential for genetic resistance. Last I heard Dr. Knight speak about the project, they were trying to figure out how to sort through the hundreds of submissions they had and find a good starting point for evaluation...

She hasn't had that problem with too many "lingering ash"...reported.

 

[ropensaddle]

EAB will attack about any size ash tree. The trees need to be about 2"-3" diameter before they larvae can complete their development...so in that regard the younger trees are not killed by EAB.

I see American Elm trees by the thousands in woodlands (and fewer in neighborhoods, but they are still all over). Most are 6-10" dbh when they are killed. Juvenile trees hold some resistance - that is about when they "normally" lose that. A relatively few make it into the upper 20" range - every now and then I'll find one pushing 30". A few years ago, USFS put out a request for surviving elm trees. They wanted trees over 24" in a natural setting with other DED killed trees nearby. The thought was they would find a few that would have potential for genetic resistance. Last I heard Dr. Knight speak about the project, they were trying to figure out how to sort through the hundreds of submissions they had and find a good starting point for evaluation...

She hasn't had that problem with too many "lingering ash"...reported.

You know what I find odd is; most of the trees we have in ruins are from foreign bugs and fungus being brought here with foreign trees. These bugs kill our trees but you would think our foreign bugs would decimate their's too

 

[Jason Douglas]

@ropensaddle you're onto something there. Introduced pests wreck havoc on our trees and the opposite too. We gave Asia tent and forest tent caterpillars and they gave us EAB and ALB. Our native trees are only attacked by our native TLCB, BBB, and hornbeam borers when they're highly stressed or dying for example but introduced shade and ornamental trees can be attacked easily as they dont have natural resistance. It works both ways. If TLCB gets to Europe or Asia, their trees would be in big trouble.

 

[ropensaddle]

Oh I can't say we took em and blame the bugs. But they did try to treat it like a wildfire years ago but that didn't work either. Evolution takes its toll what are they going for next once they have no ash

I would not call foreign bugs evolution more like man playing God. God put a large pond to prevent this, then we import in the hostile critters. I too wonder what eab will feed on when ash are gone.

 

[Jed1124]

I know you're from MN, Mike. I lived in IGH for almost 2 years. I'm well aware of where Cottage Grove is.

4 of our 5 suburban trees are very mature green ash. Two of them provide shade for the house, and two are just there. The one in question is in bad form because of the proximity to the lot line and power lines.

If EAB was to show up here (haven't seen it yet), I'd be in favor of treating the remaining 3 trees. I hope to not be living here that much longer, but some stuff needs to change before I can move so my departure timeframe is yet to be known.

By the time you notice EAB in your area it will be too late. It probably is in your area. EAB is generally in an area for 3-5 years before it is detected.
If you want to save those 3 other trees start treating them now.

 

[ATH]

You know what I find odd is; most of the trees we have in ruins are from foreign bugs and fungus being brought here with foreign trees. These bugs kill our trees but you would think our foreign bugs would decimate their's too

Well we did send Radiata pine to New Zealand. It is a relatively scrubby tree in its native range in California as I understand it...now NZ is the worlds largest exporter of softwood logs - so there is that.

 

[Jim Timber]

I came home to a door tag from Xcel and called the number which got me an Asplundh contractor. He initially said he'd take the top branch overhanging the main wire and the widowmaker down and claimed the rest would be ok for a contractor due to the lean. I brought up the 10' rule and he was wishy washy on it saying it wasn't hard and fast, but more of a guideline (I wonder what OSHA would say to that), but he seemed to understand I was rightfully concerned with the proximity and might have realized I would win if I called his bluff.

He's coming back at 7:30 am and asked me to leave the gate unlocked for him (I've got a 6.5' privacy fence that only opens from inside).

I'm not sure if he was thinking I wanted him to drop the whole tree or what. I just don't want something swinging into any of those wires (high or low voltage).

More to come later...

 

[Jim Timber]

Guy came out and says he'll put "remove as much as possible" in the work order. They've got orders from Xcel on what they're allowed to do, but the guys might hook me up when the crew arrives to do it. He also coded it as a widowmaker so I get bumped up the list.

 

[ATH]

Never hurts to call! Good deal.

 

[Jim Timber]

Even if they just trim out the tops, I'll have no issues staying clear of the lines chunking down the rest.

It's a shame this is here and not somewhere I can drop it whole. There's some good boards in those logs. Even the big lateral branch is clear for about 12' and 12" diameter.

 

[Jim Timber]

Asplund came out yesterday.







The last pic was taken at lunch break. My whole yard is covered in slash except where the machine was. I still have the trunk and first branch up about 18' but I can handle that easy enough.

She was more dead than I thought. Not much weeping at the cuts, and a lot of dry wood in the crown. I'm even more relieved it's not still standing now than before I made the choice to remove it.

 

[Jim Timber]

We've got some work to do.

 

[Woody912]

You know all the ash hysteria over a bug is a shame. I do realize its killed a lot of them off I just wonder if the chainsaw gangs have wiped the rest out premature and the bug took blame ?

EAB is rolling thru the Midwest like a tidal wave, probably 10-15 miles/year and it seems to kill every tree. 2 0f my 20 or so have been treated, the rest are dead or dying