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Help with bogging problem...

Discussion in 'Chainsaw' started by Red_Label, Mar 9, 2008.

  1. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Hi all. I just purchased a NIB Echo CS-400. Used it for about 1.5 hours yesterday with no issues whatsoever. Started within a couple of pulls and ran fine while cutting-up some pretty hardwood. I didn't run it too hard because I wanted to break it in easy. I started and stopped it several times during the course of using it and it started instantly and ran great. I was a very new saw owner/user.

    Today I pulled it out to do some more cutting and it was hard starting. So I pressed the purge pump a few times and pulled the choke. I think I ended-up flooding pretty good. So I took out the plug and cleaned it off. Finally got it started and then it wouldn't stay running. It seems like it may be a carb adjustment issue or something (I did play around with the idle adjustment when I first found it wouldn't run under load). Whenever I pull the throttle it bogs and dies. It'll idle, but won't take a load. The chain brake is not engaged, and I made sure the chain was loose enough. A friend from this forum came over (Big_Neb) and looked at it with me. We took the chain and bar off even and ran it for a minute and it still dies under load. The clutch spins freely. The air cleaner is perfectly clean. I haven't dug deeper yet, but at Neb's suggestion I thought I'd put it out there for the forum experts to chime in on and maybe save myself the trouble of trying a few more dead ends. Thanks for your input on this...
     
  2. stevethekiwi

    stevethekiwi Addicted to ArboristSite

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    hows your compression... no oil in the fuel? :dizzy:

    uh oh
     
  3. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Compression is fine. Used the Echo oil at the recommended 50:1 mixture (one 2.6oz bottle to 1 gallon).

    I forgot to mention that I did overfil both the oil and the fuel yesterday and had to wipe up the excess. Going out there now to take a look and see if maybe I plugged-up something with that? (Didn't crazily overfill, just some excess to wipe up.)

    ETA: A little background info on my mechanical abilities: I used to race dirtbikes and rebuilt my CR-250 two-stroke from the ground-up (including tranny). Just wanted to throw that in there so you'd have a better idea of my abilities with engines.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2008
  4. 58hydraglide

    58hydraglide ArboristSite Operative

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    Red Label,
    That could be caused by several things, hard to pinpoint with actually seeing the saw, but one thing that comes to mind would be a lean condition. Once it is idling, try closing the choke slighlty and crack the throttle open, see if you gat any rpm's that way. If so that could confirm a lean condition. Also this may be obvious, Did you by it online or mail order? If not and you bought it from a dealer, get it back to them pronto and let them fix it, you'll be much happier in the long run. Also dont discount what steve the kiwi said. May sound like a stupid mistake, but I've almost poured straight gas int one my saws more than once! Hope everything works out for you.
     
  5. Big Neb

    Big Neb ArboristSite Operative

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    After looking over the saw... It acts like a chain brake issue however that is not the problem. It starts and idles fine. Chain brake is not engaged. When you pull the trigger it instantly bogs and dies.

    I think it is something with the carb settings. Do any of you guys know what the factory settings should be? How many turns out etc... Echo cs-400?

    I checked the brake, clutch etc... even asked if he mixed his fuel correctly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2008
  6. sugarbush

    sugarbush AboristSite Guru

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    try turning the low speed jet counter clockwise, about a 1/4 turn.
     
  7. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks for the replies guys. And thanks for your help today Neb! Will check those settings and post update tomorrow.
     
  8. 58hydraglide

    58hydraglide ArboristSite Operative

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    +1

    Also , after thinking about it a lean high side can cause it to die right off of idle.
     
  9. stevethekiwi

    stevethekiwi Addicted to ArboristSite

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    hmmm...chainbrake but not chainbrake...


    sounds like too lean on the L jet. seems strange it didnt do it from new though, unless the wrong screw was played with ;)

    reset everything and start again!
     
  10. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks guys, I got 'er goin' again. It was lean on the L jet. I went out, got it cleaned up and got it to idle for a bit and warm-up again. Tuned the L jet the way you told me and it was running better. Tuned the idle a bit more and put the H jet to the setting the manual recommended and got better and better. I do think that I had flooded it pretty good because it took me a bit of idling to get the fuel burned off enough to start running right. But now I can grab a handful of throttle and get it to rap up a bit. Whereas before if I even thought about touching the throttle it'd die right off.

    I wanted to work it a bit and make sure to run it for a while but was in my closed garage (didn't want to disturb the neighbors after 9PM) so I just did it long enough to be sure it was working right again. Will head-out there after work tomorrow and run it hard for a while to make sure all is well. Will also give me more time to tinker with the idle and get it nice and smooth after it's plenty warmed-up.

    Thanks again guys. This site is great and I intend to keep reading and learn LOTS more... :)


    BTW... definitely I must've played with the idle and jets when I originally flooded it and that's what caused me my problems. Oh well... at least my first noob mistake wasn't sawing my leg off. I had chaps before I even had the saw, so maybe I get some noob points for that anyways? ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2008
  11. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Update...

    Took the day off from work yesterday to work with the saw more. Once she gets warmed-up she'll cut like a hot knife through butter. But until it's warmed up, it still likes to bog. Once it's idled for a bit, then I pump the throttle a bit to get it up into the powerband and it takes-off from there. Once it's gotten to that point, it's fine and will cut and cut. If I stop it and restart it within a matter of minutes, it's fine. But if I let it cool down, then I have to go through the process all over again. Like a small two-stroke dirt bike, I can tell that I need to keep this saw in the powerband to cut. It's got no grunt at all down low.

    Anyways... I did cut up a fair amount of wood with this saw and overall am happy with it. I just need to find the perfect setting on my H and L jets so it starts right-up and is ready to go immediately I guess. Will probably tinker with those some more this weekend. I can see that they are very sensitive to minute adjustments (because the whole range of adjustments is very limited in the first place).
     
  12. andrethegiant70

    andrethegiant70 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Hi, Red.. that is actually pretty common, and it sounds like you still might be a bit lean. In these days of EPA these unit come very lean from the factory...some of them even have catalytic converters!! You should not only be concerned with the "L" jet, but with the "H" jet also.... its arguably more important to the health of your saw.

    If you ask yourself what might be the result of a lean condition, the answer is pretty clear.... a poor running saw! If you are familiar with small engines (actually any engines) then you know that the fuel vaporizing in the cylinder accounts for a lot of cooling action. A lean saw will not only not have enough fuel to run the way it really should but will also run hotter....death to a chainsaw.

    My advice.... do a few searches on adjusting your carburetor, get comfortable adjusting your carburetor, and make sure that your saw is running right every time you go cutting. Once you get comfy, it takes 30 seconds to get the saw dialed in.

    There are zillions of these things sitting in landfills with torched top ends because folks didn't ask the questions you are now beginning to ask. Just think about all that crap that went into the air to make these saws and how much more crap is going to go into the air to replace them and much more crap we're going to have in the landfill because the brains at the EPA should be replaced with ones that work (or ones that haven't been bought out). Richen that saw up!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2008
  13. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks for the info andre. You're right, it definitely shouldn't run like that, so I'll keep on working on it until it works right. I must've done something to it on that second day when I had flooded it and then was trying to get/keep it running. Because I ran it for a good 1.5 hours on day one and it started and ran perfectly. So I'm going to have to blame myself on this I think. I'll get it warmed-up this weekend and play with those jets some more to find the proper settings.

    Also, would too-lean of a setting cause it to bog like that when I press the throttle? Seems like it would be too rich to my [possibly backwards] thinking. And I had messed with the idle as well, so I need to get it to factory specs. Problem is, I have no way to measure the RPM. Is there some way to measure idle that I haven't thought of, using common tools or gauges from around the house?
     
  14. volks-man

    volks-man Arboristsite.com Spooner

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    bite the bullet

    yes a lean low screw would cause a 'bog' when you snap the throttle.
    i played with my cs-440 when it did this and had to richen it up.

    more importantly maybe you should bite the bullet and take it to a dealer and let him adjust it to factory specs for you. because you bought it online i would think you will have to pay for the adjustment. a local echo dealer told me that they adjust the wot/rpm according to a chart related to a compression reading taken from the saw. thats more than most can do even with the tach, compression tester, and some know-how cuz we don't have the chart!:chainsaw:

    if you think about it though you may be out the service money but way less $ than a cooked saw!:cry:
     
  15. Zodiac45

    Zodiac45 Paleostoveologist & Sawwhisperer

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  16. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks for the info guys. And thanks for the link! I'll be headed-home with a printed copy of that to work with this weekend. From the sounds of it there's NO doubt that I have a lean L and/or H jet setting and I want to fix that asap before I torch my new toy. Thanks again!
     
  17. mountainlake

    mountainlake Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Sounds like you still need to open the low a little more, and to be safe try opening the high more 1/8 of a turn at a time if it has more cutting power open a little more. The most no RPM doesn't make the best power a little richer does. You might have to get the limiter caps off to adjust right. Did you switch gas between when it ran good to when it ran bad. My BIL CS440 ran fine on 91 oct with no ethonal (my gas) then he put some 89 with ethonal, ran lean then, it would have burnt up without pulling the caps and adjusting richer. Steve
     
  18. Red_Label

    Red_Label ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks for the info Steve. Same gas, same mixture. But the second day when I had trouble starting it, I think I screwed with the idle and L and H adjustments and that screwed it up. Now it starts great again, but until it warms up it bogs when I try to get it up to cutting speed. I'm using the same 91 octane gas with Echo mix that I first put in there. This little thing hardly uses any fuel at all, so what I bought will last a while. But of course, I'll run it in the mower after it's more than a month or two old and buy new for the saw.
     
  19. SawTroll

    SawTroll Information Collector

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    Bogging that way usually means that the L is too lean, if the saw is otherwise OK.
     
  20. stevethekiwi

    stevethekiwi Addicted to ArboristSite

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    play around with the low jet until you find the exact spot where it idles the highest, then richen it by 1/2 a turn.

    perfect low jet tuning every time
     

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