How to measure wood (what is a cord?)

[Guido Salvage]

We are often asked how much wood is contained in a rick, rank, rack, stack, pile, face cord, bundle, row or some other obtuse term. Since wood is measured by volume, none of these terms can provide a meaningful answer as all contain an indeterminate variable, the length of the wood.

The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet. Since wood is measured by volume, three dimensions are required in order to make the calculation (L x H x D).

Many times we see the term “face cord” used to define a measure of wood. While not a valid unit of measure, a “face cord” is typically considered to be a pile of wood 8 feet long by 4 feet tall. However, since it lacks a third dimension to calculate volume, it could be of any length and still meet the “definition”. Thus one person could cut logs to 6 inch lengths and stack them in a pile 8 feet long and 4 feet high and call it a “face cord” as could the person who was cutting to 48” lengths. While the latter person’s “face cord” would contain a full cord (128 cubic feet), the former person’s “face cord” would only contain 1/8 of a cord (or 16 cubic feet).

If selling wood, many states require firewood to be sold by the cord or a fraction thereof. Selling wood in this fashion allows the consumer to know the amount they are purchasing while shielding the seller from claims that the volume fell short of what was advertised or sold.

To avoid confusion, please refer to wood amounts in cords or a fraction thereof.

 

[Dozer Man]

Custom Cut Firewood

Good thread.

Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...

Very curious to how everyone else deals with this or a similar situation.

 

[turnkey4099]

Good thread.

Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...

Very curious to how everyone else deals with this or a similar situation.

Price by the cord with a surcharge for any length other than 16"?

Harry K

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Stay with me , I'm going somewhere with this one !

I think this thread/stickey is long overdue in the making. The topic comes up often enough and seems to sidetrack the thread it starts in, everytime.

I've tried to stay out of the discussions knowing that buyers aren't usually looking for cords all at once. Most buyers don't know what a cord really is other than a very large amount of wood. Usually to much for them to either afford or store all of it at once. So it gets broke down to smaller units.

Somewhere back in time the "tightly stowed, ranked, racked or ricked stacks of wood" (4'x4'x8' cords) were probably sold individually one row or ricked stack at a time. I can see where the term rick or rank came from. The face cord is a little bit of a stretch for me but I can see where buyers might only want to buy what they can see, just the portion facing out. OK so the term face cord started getting used in some areas. The length of the wood in these stacks can vary. That's where the problem begins to arise. Some sellers are cutting to varying lengths, some buyers WANT non standard lengths. Not every buyer wants a full cord. Not every seller can deliver a cord all at once.

I fully agree that a cord, fraction of cord or by the cubic foot/meter is the only definitive way to measure and sell firewood. We are NOT going to be productive in changing the long standing mind set of every firewood buyer or seller in every region by beating other members over the head with the description of a cord of wood. I know there are sellers passing off roughly 2/3 cord (2 ricks) of wood for a cord. They are breaking the law, this doesn't make them dishonest people, not all of them. Who hasn't sped, run over weight or put gas in a non-approved container ? Partly it is a matter of being misinformed by someone that introduced them to firewood. Others ? well yeah, their credibility is plausible. They can be as easy to spot as green wood with fresh sawdust.

Hopefully, any future reference to non standard measurements, regardless of what they are called, will be politely referred back to this thread. This way no accusations of credibility are cast from their use of a familiar term instead of an industry standard term.


Afterthought: I avoided using the word "universal" because some members outside of N. America might not recognize a cord but would know a M^3 if they seen one.

 

[Coldfront]

Shouldn't your reference to dimension in the first post be L x H x W = cord or percent of cord?
(length, height, width)
What does the D stand for in L x H x D diameter?
And probably the most misleading thing about selling firewood cut and split even more so than using the term face cord is the passing off of a pickup truck load as a cord of wood. A pickup load without high side walls can never hold a cord of wood. Might as well go down that road as well.

 

[Dozer Man]

Good thread.

Just curious for some input on this problem...I've been offering to custom cut firewood. I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. I know I will use less wood in a 4x8 rick (face cord) if I cut it at 12" instead of 16". But I will have the same amount of time (maybe a little less) processing 12'' rounds as I would in processing 16" rounds. Same problem applies to a full cord...there would be 4 ricks (4x8) of 12" wood versus 3 ricks of 16". That is substantially more processing time.
1/4 cord vs. 1/3 cord... Less wood but same cuts and splits. Time is money to me...

Very curious to how everyone else deals with this or a similar situation.

I'm definately not trying to sidetrack this thread. I saw this thread come up and thought it a good place to ask this question. I have no problem using CORD as a standard of meas. for selling wood. My question is still how to charge for a cord of wood...3/3 vs. 4/4??? One has roughly 30% more labor. Just remember every area has different accordingly's to go by. (rick,rank,facecord...). If anybody knows of a "standard" for Indiana I would like to know.

Thanks AS

 

[Guido Salvage]

Shouldn't your reference to dimension in the first post be L x H x W = cord or percent of cord?
(length, height, width)
What does the D stand for in L x H x D diameter?

I thought about using width (W) but thought some might confuse that with the length of the row. In this instance D = Depth. They would certainly be interchangeable but W is probably more familiar to people who suffered through math in school.

Perhaps this helps:

 

[Philbert]

The only recognized (and in many places legal) measurement of wood is the CORD or some fraction thereof (i.e. ¼ cord, ½ cord, etc.). A CORD is defined as containing 128 CUBIC FEET of tightly stacked wood, most commonly arranged in rows 8 feet long, 4 feet high and 4 feet deep. However, any dimensions would work as long as the dimensions equal 128 cubic feet.

Some states allow wood to be sold by weight, but I never understood how to account for green or wet wood.

The tightly packed part is also important. There is frequently confusion about cords of full length logs (a.k.a. 'logger's cord') which result in less than 128 cubic feet when cut, split and stacked. This is because cut and split wood can be stacked more tightly, even though the weight should be close (minus saw dust).

I've been asked in the past for 12" pieces. I'm not sure how to charge. . . . Less wood but same cuts and splits.

Interesting question. Just kicking around some ideas.

If you could figure out how much of what you charge is attributable to your raw materials (wood), how much to your time, how much to your overhead (fuel, chains, use of splitter, saws, truck etc.), you could calculate a different price, just as you might for a cord of poplar versus a cord of oak, where your time is the same but one wood sells for more.

As a potential buyer, I would expect to pay less for a 4'X8'X12" stack of wood than a 4X8X16" stack, because I would be getting less wood, even though your labor is the same. So maybe not 75% of the 16" price. Not 100%. Maybe 90% if they buy one 12" stack, and 85% if they buy 4 (full cord)? Or maybe you start with your 'regular' price and simply add a 'custom-order' charge for anything else?

Kick around some numbers, round them off a bit, and ask your friends if that seems fair. Maybe call around to other firewood ads and ask what they charge?

Philbert

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Dozer Man, a cord is the valid legal term for selling firewood, even in Indiana. When I sell firewood I'll advertise it as ..."a rick, measuring 4'x8'x16" equaling 1/3 cord." I cover the local term that buyers know and the legal definition of how much the buyer should expect to receive. Check your local Craigslist for the term used local to your area and cover your butt with the legally correct amount you are selling.

Your other question is valid enough to start a separate thread and will probably get more exposure/responses on its own.

 

[Dozer Man]

Good Advice

Thanks guys...Great advice all around.

 

[Steve2910]

some states allow wood to be sold by weight, but i never understood how to account for green or wet wood.

The tightly packed part is also important. There is frequently confusion about cords of full length logs (a.k.a. 'logger's cord') which result in less than 128 cubic feet when cut, split and stacked. This is because cut and split wood can be stacked more tightly, even though the weight should be close (minus saw dust).




Interesting question. Just kicking around some ideas.

If you could figure out how much of what you charge is attributable to your raw materials (wood), how much to your time, how much to your overhead (fuel, chains, use of splitter, saws, truck etc.), you could calculate a different price, just as you might for a cord of poplar versus a cord of oak, where your time is the same but one wood sells for more.

As a potential buyer, i would expect to pay less for a 4'x8'x12" stack of wood than a 4x8x16" stack, because i would be getting less wood, even though your labor is the same. So maybe not 75% of the 16" price. Not 100%. Maybe 90% if they buy one 12" stack, and 85% if they buy 4 (full cord)? Or maybe you start with your 'regular' price and simply add a 'custom-order' charge for anything else?

Kick around some numbers, round them off a bit, and ask your friends if that seems fair. Maybe call around to other firewood ads and ask what they charge?

Philbert

if the phone rings "off the hook" & you sell out in hours, the price is too low. If you get zero calls, the price is too high. The law of supply & demand works in any economic condition

 

[ratso]

Cord

I'm new to AS and I have been using firewood for heat since the ice age.I had never heard of a rik,rack,face or whatever until I read it here on AS.

 

[Philbert]

I'm new to AS and I have been using firewood for heat since the ice age.I had never heard of a rik,rack,face or whatever until I read it here on AS.

Then there is the 'bundle'. At local gas stations, they sell a plastic wrapped bundle of firewood, maybe 16" in diameter (?) and 16" long for $4-$5. About 20 years ago, we put a wood stove insert in our fireplace and checked the classified ads for firewood. Several guys had 'bundles' of slab wood (clapboard) from the mills. Something like $60 a bundle for one, $55 a bundle for 2, $50 a bundle for 3, delivered. How big is a bundle? Could not get a straight answer. Sucker for a deal, so I ordered 2 bundles to get some of the price break.

Guy pulls into our alley (city lot) with a boom truck and places 2 'bundles' of oak clapboard over the fence. Each one was about the size of a Honda Accord, held together by heavy steel strapping. Worked out fine for us, except that we had too much wood. Had a couple of friends come over to help cut it up in exchange for free wood. Cut it off into 16" lengths. Split some of the wider planks down, but nothing like splitting rounds. Perfect stove sized wood.

Still not sure if I had ordered it again, or from another ad, how big the bundles would have been.

Philbert

 

[Coldfront]

If a guy wants 1/3 cord but in 12" pieces I would charge the same as a 16" piece, and yes he will be a little shorted on actual wood just because of the custom size cut, but you can just throw in a few extra pieces. It is really no extra work if you are cutting off a log length wood.

 

[Philbert]

If a guy wants 1/3 cord but in 12" pieces I would charge the same as a 16" piece, and yes he will be a little shorted on actual wood just because of the custom size cut, but you can just throw in a few extra pieces. It is really no extra work if you are cutting off a log length wood.

This makes sense, and was my first reaction. But what if he wants a full cord cut into 12" pieces instead of 16" pieces. How much would you charge?

Philbert

 

[Coldfront]

There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.

 

[ratso]

There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.[/UOTE

I don't sell wood but know of people that get 12 inch pieces smaller woodstove and some elderly people can not handle the extra 4 inches weight.

 

[Coldfront]

There can't be that many people who want a full cord of 12" pieces. Explain to them it will cost extra, 2 extra cuts per 8' log and extra splitting. If they don't like it send him down the road.[/UOTE

I don't sell wood but know of people that get 12 inch pieces smaller woodstove and some elderly people can not handle the extra 4 inches weight.

I guess if you can't handle a single piece of 16" dry split wood maybe you shouldn't be burning wood.

 

[Dozer Man]

Dozer Man, a cord is the valid legal term for selling firewood, even in Indiana. When I sell firewood I'll advertise it as ..."a rick, measuring 4'x8'x16" equaling 1/3 cord." I cover the local term that buyers know and the legal definition of how much the buyer should expect to receive. Check your local Craigslist for the term used local to your area and cover your butt with the legally correct amount you are selling.

Your other question is valid enough to start a separate thread and will probably get more exposure/responses on its own.

I took your advice and started a new thread about "Price per cord...3/3 cord vs. 4/4 cord".
Again, thanks to all and I certainly did not mean to highjack this thread. It is a great topic that I will continue to follow.

 

[Philbert]

I took your advice and started a new thread about "Price per cord...3/3 cord vs. 4/4 cord". QUOTE]

For those interested in the new thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/183304.htm