IS vs 30-NCH Help Needed

[Ambull01]

I need some help/advice concerning two stoves (or others if they compare). The stoves are the Ideal Steel and the Englander 30-NCH. The IS runs from $1,500 or so to a bit over $2k. The Englander can be had from HD for $700-ish to $900. The IS utilizes hybrid tech (cat and secondary tubes) while the Englander is strictly secondary. I can basically buy two 30-NCH stoves for the price of one IS.

IS
Pros (assumptions/SWAGs):
Longer burns
Cleaner burns
If lined with soapstone, more even/longer lasting heat
More control over heat/able to use in shoulder season without smoldering

Cons:
Price. Not outrageously expensive but twice as much as the Englander
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder deal. Doesn't look that bad to me but may look too commercial to others.
Maintenance (periodic replacement of cat).

Englander
Pros:
Cheap
Has been out for a long time and is considered one of the best budget stoves
Throws out a lot of heat
Maintenance will be cheap

Cons:
Less control of heat/burn
Shorter burn time
May not be able to use during shoulder season

What say you? Help me out here, which way would ya'll go?

 

[svk]

This is to complement your insert? Or you will be using this primarily?

 

[Cerran]

I need some help/advice concerning two stoves (or others if they compare). The stoves are the Ideal Steel and the Englander 30-NCH. The IS runs from $1,500 or so to a bit over $2k. The Englander can be had from HD for $700-ish to $900. The IS utilizes hybrid tech (cat and secondary tubes) while the Englander is strictly secondary. I can basically buy two 30-NCH stoves for the price of one IS.

IS
Pros (assumptions/SWAGs):
Longer burns
Cleaner burns
If lined with soapstone, more even/longer lasting heat
More control over heat/able to use in shoulder season without smoldering

Cons:
Price. Not outrageously expensive but twice as much as the Englander
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder deal. Doesn't look that bad to me but may look too commercial to others.
Maintenance (periodic replacement of cat).

Englander
Pros:
Cheap
Has been out for a long time and is considered one of the best budget stoves
Throws out a lot of heat
Maintenance will be cheap

Cons:
Less control of heat/burn
Shorter burn time
May not be able to use during shoulder season

What say you? Help me out here, which way would ya'll go?

How much of a big deal is cost? Planning on staying in the house for quite a while? Primary heater? Type of wood you burn?

Long term maintenance on the IS is likely to be more but you'll gain some better control with a cat stove over a stove with secondaries as you have mentioned.

As a long term owner of a couple stoves with burn tubes (Quadrafire 3100i and Englander 13NCl) I'd seriously consider a cat stove for my next install because of burn times and turndown ability. Don't get me wrong, I love my Quad and Englander but I might go a different route given the chance now.

 

[Ambull01]

This is to complement your insert? Or you will be using this primarily?

No I'm going to either get rid of my tiny insert or relegate it to shop duties if I ever get a shop lol.

How much of a big deal is cost? Planning on staying in the house for quite a while? Primary heater? Type of wood you burn?

Long term maintenance on the IS is likely to be more but you'll gain some better control with a cat stove over a stove with secondaries as you have mentioned.

As a long term owner of a couple stoves with burn tubes (Quadrafire 3100i and Englander 13NCl) I'd seriously consider a cat stove for my next install because of burn times and turndown ability. Don't get me wrong, I love my Quad and Englander but I might go a different route given the chance now.

Cost is a slightly big deal but I don't mind paying a bit more for something that will make my house a pleasant place to be. Right now my daggone house is cold. I almost look forward to coming to work so I can be in a warm place.

Just bought this house in April and I'm hoping it will be my last home purchase.

Yes, primary and hopefully only heater. I have electric baseboard heat right now. They thermostats that's supposed to kick them on were installed before I was born and are faulty. I should probably just install new thermostats and leave the heaters alone but I kind of want to rip all the heaters out.

No idea on type of wood, haven't really started wood burning yet. I'm hoping mostly hardwoods.

What kind of shoulder season temps do you have? How do your stoves perform when outside temps aren't in the ridiculous cold category?

 

[X-S-FLA]

Taking your avatar into consideration, I'm sure you consider SHTF sceanarios? I don't know if you can run a cat-based stove w/o the cat.
I'm ignorant but am trying to learn.
I dunno...if comes a day when you can't find a replacement cat...can you still just throw wood in there and get good results?

 

[Ambull01]

Taking your avatar into consideration, I'm sure you consider SHTF sceanarios? I don't know if you can run a cat-based stove w/o the cat.
I'm ignorant but am trying to learn.
I dunno...if comes a day when you can't find a replacement cat...can you still just throw wood in there and get good results?

Are you BA/Overclock or whatever the name was?

Nah, I don't really give much thought to SHTF scenarios. I drive a freaking Cadillac sedan for crying out loud, not exactly the ideal SHTF vehicle.

The IS utilizes a cat and secondary tubes.

 

[quotejso2]

I have the nc30 so far for this season it's been nice but I'm going to add an IS hopefully for next season large old farmhouse needs more heat.

 

[Cerran]

No I'm going to either get rid of my tiny insert or relegate it to shop duties if I ever get a shop lol.




Cost is a slightly big deal but I don't mind paying a bit more for something that will make my house a pleasant place to be. Right now my daggone house is cold. I almost look forward to coming to work so I can be in a warm place.

Just bought this house in April and I'm hoping it will be my last home purchase.

Yes, primary and hopefully only heater. I have electric baseboard heat right now. They thermostats that's supposed to kick them on were installed before I was born and are faulty. I should probably just install new thermostats and leave the heaters alone but I kind of want to rip all the heaters out.

No idea on type of wood, haven't really started wood burning yet. I'm hoping mostly hardwoods.

What kind of shoulder season temps do you have? How do your stoves perform when outside temps aren't in the ridiculous cold category?

Well depending on the age of the house and the windows/insulation it has, in order to stay warm I'd consider that as well. Spending a few hundred on extra insulation or a couple windows (if you are DIY handy) if you need it can increase comfort a lot.

That being said, I have typical winter temps in the mid teens to low 30's on average with usually 1-2 weeks of really cold weather (sub zero) per year. Pretty mild overall but I only have a 2.1 cubic foot firebox and can easily get 7-9 hours of usable heat out of my stove when temps are 20F and above. My house stays comfortable (in the low to mid 70's) although when it gets warmer the living room gets baked out if you overload the stove. My front windows are fairly poor and the original that came with the house in 1978 but the rest of the house windows are Pella vinyls from Lowes I installed about 5 years ago. I have about an R 40/50 insulation in the attic and standard R13 2x4 walls with fiberglass in them.

Some people who burn hardwoods have had less than stellar performance on some of the non-cat stoves, but that varies a lot depending on the wood and user as well.

I'm burning primarily softwoods and when I do burn the occasional hardwood load (apple, locust or mountain ash) I do get better burn times but I never really paid much attention to how much better. I would say tack another 2 hours onto my burn times.

 

[svk]

Are you BA/Overclock or whatever the name was?

He's clear, all of those guys joined January 6th LOL

 

[X-S-FLA]

don't know what BA/Overclock means. Just thinkin' ahead...the way this country is goin' and all.
I hate to rely on others if at all possible.
mike

 

[Ambull01]

I have the nc30 so far for this season it's been nice but I'm going to add an IS hopefully for next season large old farmhouse needs more heat.

What part of the U.S. are you? You thinking of adding the IS in addition to the Englander? I forgot to add the Englander 30-NCH is only a top exhaust I believe. That would be another con. I would have to put it directly under the chimney flue or only slight in front of it. The IS is top or rear exhaust. I would like the stove out of the chimney firebox area to get the most heat.

Well depending on the age of the house and the windows/insulation it has, in order to stay warm I'd consider that as well. Spending a few hundred on extra insulation or a couple windows (if you are DIY handy) if you need it can increase comfort a lot.

That being said, I have typical winter temps in the mid teens to low 30's on average with usually 1-2 weeks of really cold weather (sub zero) per year. Pretty mild overall but I only have a 2.1 cubic foot firebox and can easily get 7-9 hours of usable heat out of my stove when temps are 20F and above. My house stays comfortable (in the low to mid 70's) although when it gets warmer the living room gets baked out if you overload the stove. My front windows are fairly poor and the original that came with the house in 1978 but the rest of the house windows are Pella vinyls from Lowes I installed about 5 years ago. I have about an R 40/50 insulation in the attic and standard R13 2x4 walls with fiberglass in them.

Some people who burn hardwoods have had less than stellar performance on some of the non-cat stoves, but that varies a lot depending on the wood and user as well.

I'm burning primarily softwoods and when I do burn the occasional hardwood load (apple, locust or mountain ash) I do get better burn times but I never really paid much attention to how much better. I would say tack another 2 hours onto my burn times.

It's an old ass house, built in 1891. Probably original windows. I'm going to redo the insulation in the attic and figure something out for the 3rd floor rooms (I never use those rooms, attic portion is accessed through a midget sized door from one of the third floor rooms). Was thinking about new windows but damn they're expensive. Return on investment would take a really long time.

Never gets that cold here (sub zero). I would kill to have the house in the low 70s-upper 60s. Most of my house hovers around mid to low 50s right now. With a cat stove, would you be able to bypass being baked out of the stove room during mild temps?

Are they getting better performance from burning softwoods in secondary stoves? That would seem strange. I figured cat and secondary stoves would both perform better with hard woods.

 

[Cerran]

New windows shouldn't be super expensive if you do them yourself. I did mine about 5 years ago for about 170-350 dollars a window depending on the size. Now if you want to match the existing house decor that may drive up the price. ROI isn't solely on energy use but also on comfort. You likely also don't have good insulation in your walls which is going to be a lot tougher to remedy.

Cat stoves offer better turndown and I envy the turn-down of my friend's Blaze King compared to my quad in warmer weather. The blaze king also has a bigger firebox and a less frequent load cycle most of the time which would be nice. It's a Cat only stove though so a bit different than what you are looking at.

No the issue with secondary stoves and hardwoods has been a buildup of coals that are hard to get to burn down at certain points. Not everyone has the issue so it's rather hit and miss, but I haven't heard of the issue with Cat based stoves.

 

[zogger]

Once you get burning, you'll notice having a variety of species and sizes of splits and small rounds will greatly enhance your ability to control heat output.

That's about all I have for adjusting heat, burn oak and hickory and ash when it is real cold, tulip poplar and similar when it is cold enough for a fire but don't need to use the nuclear option.

And then there's pine, which burns hot..but not long. Say you want a short hot fire in the morning when it is just cool out, and the stove can go out during the day while everyone is gone, and it is warming up outside anyway. Pine is great for that.

 

[Ambull01]

New windows shouldn't be super expensive if you do them yourself. I did mine about 5 years ago for about 170-350 dollars a window depending on the size. Now if you want to match the existing house decor that may drive up the price. ROI isn't solely on energy use but also on comfort. You likely also don't have good insulation in your walls which is going to be a lot tougher to remedy.

Cat stoves offer better turndown and I envy the turn-down of my friend's Blaze King compared to my quad in warmer weather. The blaze king also has a bigger firebox and a less frequent load cycle most of the time which would be nice. It's a Cat only stove though so a bit different than what you are looking at.

No the issue with secondary stoves and hardwoods has been a buildup of coals that are hard to get to burn down at certain points. Not everyone has the issue so it's rather hit and miss, but I haven't heard of the issue with Cat based stoves.

Yeah I should look into window replacement prices. I just assumed it would be outrageous since I have those really long windows that zombies can just walk through. Yeah walls are most likely solid with no insulation. It's pretty great during the summer as it stays relatively cool in the house.

I've read a lot about the Blaze King models. Seems everyone loves them. Only downsides to them are their looks, price, and some minor annoyances with build quality/components.

Oh right I've read about that on hearth. Just read some people use pellets that they put over the coals and open up the primary air. Pellets are supposed to burn fast and hot so it forces the coals to burn down. I may try it some day.

Once you get burning, you'll notice having a variety of species and sizes of splits and small rounds will greatly enhance your ability to control heat output.

That's about all I have for adjusting heat, burn oak and hickory and ash when it is real cold, tulip poplar and similar when it is cold enough for a fire but don't need to use the nuclear option.

And then there's pine, which burns hot..but not long. Say you want a short hot fire in the morning when it is just cool out, and the stove can go out during the day while everyone is gone, and it is warming up outside anyway. Pine is great for that.

Oh yeah that's true. Forgot about strategically using wood species to control burn/heat. I can't wait until the spring/summer. I have some big plans for this house. Going to cut open above the door transoms to let heat out and mount fans in the opening. Then I'll tackle attic insulation and find a way to get rid of the damn squirrel that is squatting up there. I have to read more about insulating the floor rafters in the crawlspace, if it makes a difference I'll do that.

 

[flotek]

Adding a heavy layer of cellulose in my attic was a much better investment than new windows in my case . . I would consider a wood furnace if you needed that kind of btu output . A stove is a room heater not designed for multi story old farm house comfort

 

[Tjcole50]

Cut the legs on my nc30 used a 30 degree elbow and shoved that tank 1/2 way into fireplace opening and made a block off plate. I like it so much I'm adding a second one in my basement directly below my main floor. Thing is super simple to burn. Runs hot as hell with good seasoned wood cruises at 700-750 degrees depending on species burnt. I can re lite off of coals 12 hours later. For 699 it is a steal

 

[Cerran]

Cut the legs on my nc30 used a 30 degree elbow and shoved that tank 1/2 way into fireplace opening and made a block off plate. I like it so much I'm adding a second one in my basement directly below my main floor. Thing is super simple to burn. Runs hot as hell with good seasoned wood cruises at 700-750 degrees depending on species burnt. I can re lite off of coals 12 hours later. For 699 it is a steal

Wow $699 right now? At that price I might consider swapping out my NC-13 downstairs at some point.

Adding a heavy layer of cellulose in my attic was a much better investment than new windows in my case . . I would consider a wood furnace if you needed that kind of btu output . A stove is a room heater not designed for multi story old farm house comfort

I would agree of your attic has poor insulation to start. If you're already R50 or higher I think windows might be a better bet depending on the condition of your current windows.

 

[Ambull01]

Adding a heavy layer of cellulose in my attic was a much better investment than new windows in my case . . I would consider a wood furnace if you needed that kind of btu output . A stove is a room heater not designed for multi story old farm house comfort

Are you a member on hearth too? Your name looks familiar. Not sure if you're talking to me but I don't have a farm house. My house is old as dirt though. Three story blue collar Victorian style. Pretty drafty. A wood furnace would be awesome but not sure if it will work with my current setup. I'm assuming you mean a wood stove will not give all rooms uniform heat? If so I totally get that. I just would like to walk around my house without my coat, sweater, thermal underwear, t-shirt, combat cold weather boot socks, and shoes lol.

Cut the legs on my nc30 used a 30 degree elbow and shoved that tank 1/2 way into fireplace opening and made a block off plate. I like it so much I'm adding a second one in my basement directly below my main floor. Thing is super simple to burn. Runs hot as hell with good seasoned wood cruises at 700-750 degrees depending on species burnt. I can re lite off of coals 12 hours later. For 699 it is a steal

I always wondered how much heat you would lose by shoving a stove into the chimney firebox. $699 is a great price. I heard they usually offer the Englander at a great price around February or so. Supposedly the super cheap price will be at a particular store so you have to designate that as your store and have it shipped. Is that what you did? I could buy two stoves and walk around with shorts and a t-shirt for that price.

 

[windthrown]

I got my NC 30 for so cheap from HD it was a no-brainer. It was a deal they had in Virginia with free delivery here inside my living room. So I made that my HD store on their web site and ordered it online. They got wise to that and stopped doing the free shipping, but they get pretty cheap in the off season at some HD stores. You have to hunt them down on their web site. My Englander stove replaced an older smoke dragon stove here that I sold for $200 to reduce my cost even more.

Issues with CAT and secondary stoves are that below a certain temp, they both turn into smoke dragons (when you damp them down). I can cook this place with the Englander, and rarely fill it full. You can control heat a number of ways, with species as mentioned above, but also with split size and number. More smaller splits have more surface area for more heat, but less time heating. Few larger splits have less surface area to create less heat, but for a longer burn time. I find that it is easy to overfire this thing, like my last stove. So I have to damp it down some. I also get more heat from burning fewer splits hotter, rather than more splits damped down. I usually have only 2 or 3 4x4 size splits in there at a time. I do not burn 4x4s, that is just the rough size of splits that I have been burning. We have also had a really warm winter this year, but when temps dropped, I added more splits of oak and black locust instead of the cypress and alder that I was burning and it kept this place toasty.

I also have to say, the exiled Ape is sure busy on this site with his many personas this year.

 

[Tjcole50]

Are you a member on hearth too? Your name looks familiar. Not sure if you're talking to me but I don't have a farm house. My house is old as dirt though. Three story blue collar Victorian style. Pretty drafty. A wood furnace would be awesome but not sure if it will work with my current setup. I'm assuming you mean a wood stove will not give all rooms uniform heat? If so I totally get that. I just would like to walk around my house without my coat, sweater, thermal underwear, t-shirt, combat cold weather boot socks, and shoes lol.



I always wondered how much heat you would lose by shoving a stove into the chimney firebox. $699 is a great price. I heard they usually offer the Englander at a great price around February or so. Supposedly the super cheap price will be at a particular store so you have to designate that as your store and have it shipped. Is that what you did? I could buy two stoves and walk around with shorts and a t-shirt for that price.

Yeah search zip codes and your local store will match it. I would not shove it in all the eay but mine sticks out a little more than 1/2 way in my fireplace. I only use the blower at 10 or below and high winds. It heats a 21 ft cathedral open a- frame at 1700 sq ft. My basement is 1/2 way above grade so it's cold down there and unusable. My walls have 1/2 foam board and finished I figure a stove will make it useful and help heat rise. If it works our well enough I will run it 24/7 instead of my mainfloor. What better beast to put down there!