Lighter/thinner or heavier/thicker?

[Proj Eng]

I still don't see why you can't just dump the sucker across that driveway (pic #1). Sure, it'd be between the house and the other tree but looks to be simpler/cheaper than the sunken cost for a hobby. In a worst case scenario, damaging the house won't land you in the hospital or leave you scarred.
Or... I thought take down's were cheap? Forget cleanup costs, just a takedown?

 

[Ax-man]

We never got this far, but my first question would be is how much are those side limbs on the Popular growing into or are entangled in the neighboring Maple. To my way of thinking those would have to be the first to go, if they are into the Maple quite a ways. OH, I forgot those are perches so they have to stay.

Larry

 

[Tom Dunlap]

ED claimed to be leaving the parallel TB/AS discussions. I see that he hasn't yet.

IN case you are still here, you're walking on a thin limb claiming that your engineering education qualifies you to do takedowns. Five years ago, almost to the day, another engineer with a Doctorate in his resume, was killed doing a takedown that he wasn't prepared to do. His lack of tree knowledge lead him to doing something that he wasn't prepared to do. To give you an idea of this man's place in the arbo profession, I'll illustrate his connection to us. The accident happened in mid-afternoon. When I got home from our chapter TCC I had three seperate email announcments that had started about three hours previous. All three of them had circled the globe in forwards to friends in the industry. No matter, he is dead still.

There is no doubt in my mind that you understand the science of tree takedowns. How do you plan on learning the art? After looking at your pictures I'd be pretty concerned about climbing the tree. I've been working in the profession for close to forty years and climbing for thirty. What does that mean to you?

If you choose to go on with this project you might consider taking the feasibility acid test. Print out all of the threads from TB and AS. Without any pump-priming have your wife, I'm making an assumption based on your "honey-do" comment, read them. Then, ask her if she still wants you to go ahead. If I make a wrong assupmtion about a spouse, ask your next of kin or a close friend. If they think that you're qualified, go ahead, climb on!

Have you bought the video series "The Art and Science of Practical Rigging" ? The man who was killed wrote the script for the book and videos. The ASPR'N series is considered by many in the profession the best instructions available. Pete Donzelli still lacked the understanding of the variablility of trees, especially decayed ones, that migh have kept him alive.

How about making up a map to show us how the yard is laid out. Show tree and house locations and tree heights.It sure looks like the aspen would be a flopper directly towards the camera in one of the long/wide pics that you posted.

What kind of engineering do you practice? Can you share some insights into what type of projects that you've worked on?

PS...is this an attempt by the mods at humor? RTC? I agree, it seems like the thread is on the way to the accident/death forum. Pretty macabre....

 

[Stumper]

Tom , You aren't telling ED what he wants to hear.

Dude, Just shinny up there with some utility rope tied to your belt and whack it down in pieces. You will probably survive-most people get away with doing stuff they aren't qualified for a few times. On a more serious note-it isn't a very complex tree-decay is the only big concern. If you spent over 100 hours of your time "preparing" you are getting a lousy return on your investment-An hour spent with professionals who came to bid and a few hours of you working at YOUR profession to pay the bill would have it done already.

 

[Acer]

I know many people with an awful lot of climbing experience simply wouldn't climb such a tree. They'd get a work platform (aka bucket) in and work from that.
I think Tom Dunlap's comments hit the nail squarely on the head.

EngineerDude, you seem to believe that everything can be learned through bookwork. I have a reference for you.

Kruger, J. & Dunning, D., 1999. "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments Journal of Personality and Social Psychology December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

To save you looking it up, it's here

 

[jerseydevil]

what is your time worth? I thought engineers made decent money. Why not just pay the 200 bucks or so to have it dropped and removed. I mean if you really want it gone soon. That way the problem is solved and you can practice climbing. I am no expert but your ideas seem out of touch with reality. You could drop that tree whole, and land it on a dime. Just use the force, like that little green dude did in that movie about those starwars. I think it was called Fighting Green Guys In Space.
Good luck ED. don't forget to let us know how you do it and how it goes. :alien:

 

[clearance]

I never said not to climb the tree without a rope. I said it might not be needed, always take a rope up in the tree with you, always.

 

[RedlineIt]

Engineerdood,

If you believe that climbing with spurs means you won't have a rope and saddle to go Rec-climb, I don't know what to say, other than that the Arbormaster courses can't happen soon enough for you.

Oh, I forgot, you're an engineer and have a better understanding of the "phyics" (sp) than the average arborist.

Wait a minute, you never actually claimed to be an engineer. Just that you have an engineering background. Care to expand on that?

On the other hand the tree is a piece of piss. (Local slang for easy).

You are on the right track to tie into the taller maple, it is what I would do if I doubted the dead top at all.

I know you started this thread asking about rope "Feel" and climber preference for rope, but it is immaterial. I have long and short climb ropes of old and new from different sources, I know what to expect from each rope because I know each rope, personally. I like light, next guy likes heavy.

Next, and this is the best piece of advice I can give you, do this, your first removal with a brand new hand-saw. I saw nothing in your photos you need to put a chainsaw to before it can be dropped from the ground.

Take the chainsaw out of the picture. The new handsaws are awsome! You'll get more exersize, you'll be much safer and you don't intend to Rec-climb with a chainsaw anyway.

RedlineIt

 

[BostonBull]

As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process..

You do realize that Rip and Ken (Owners) DO NOT allow homeowners into their programs right? And they will find out QUICK if you are not an arborist or arborist in training with a real co.

Happened last month in my Arbormaster Class I took and they kicked the guy and his girl out NO refund!

 

[Chuck R]

Happened last month in my Arbormaster Class I took and they kicked the guy and his girl out NO refund!

Really!?! What happens if they find out that you rented their videos? My wife even watched most of it.

 

[BostonBull]

Cant comment but the way Rip stated was ARBORMASTER is for ARBORists! Hence the name if it was for homeowners he may have called it tree training for everyone.

 

[BostonBull]

Plus think of the liability he would have if any homeowner came in tooka 2 dy course on climbing and then went and killed themselves!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Plus think of the liability he would have if any homeowner came in tooka 2 dy course on climbing and then went and killed themselves!

There wouldn't be any difference if anyone took the class. That's what liablility insurance is for.

 

[helpmytrees]

Who wants insurance as protection against a multi-million dollar lawsuit (and there are maximums on that coverage) brought on by a rich guys family claiming neglegent training of regular Joe. Besides, you gotta keep Tom, **** and Harry out of programs like this unless they are looking for a career. There is doctor assisted suiside in some states so you could avoid the training altogether.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I'm not making my point clear I guess.

ANYONE can bring a suit against an instructor or trainer. If I chose to take an AM class and got hurt using something that I learned there I could sue them. The chance of me collecting might be much less than a non-pro climber, but the novice pro climber would have just as good a chance of collecting as the non-pro.

If a case can be made that something wasn't covered in the training there is a basis for a suit. Right or wrong, that's the way it is in the US.

It's a shame for the people who got booted that they weren't told about the qualifications needed to attend the class. I'm betting that there might be more to the story than we're getting here.

 

[helpmytrees]

Whatever on the lawsuits, the legal fees they would incur to fight the lawsuits could be devastating enough. Agree on the unfortunate aspect. Also agree that there is likely more to the story.

 

[Dadatwins]

I am sure there is some type of disclaimer that must be signed prior to participating in the class. Those folks have been giving those classes a while, have the blessing of the ISA and follow strict ANSI requirements, and I am sure they talked to some legal counsel to protect themselves. Don't know why they would deny anyone from participating in a training class, regardless of skill level, unless they felt it was a liabilty issue for the company. JMO

Back to original thread, Engineer Dude, where are you on the tree removal?

 

[helpmytrees]

Hey Dada, check the new thread "lighter/heavier #2" still in rec climbing forum for the latest.

 

[EngineerDude]

Lighter/thinner - brief revival

Been a long time since I've visited this forum. Been meaning to do so throughout the summer, but things have been too busy. Raining here today, though, so it seems like a good time to post that the aspen removal that was discussed (energetically at times) last summer was completed successfully earlier this year. With rope high in the adjacent maple, I was able to get over and top the aspen. (Ax-man, as I intuitively knew would be the case, your prediction that the rope angles would work against me was certainly true. Getting properly (safely/securely) positioned was the most strenuous physical thing I've done in a while.) Once past the topping, positioning myself lower was much easier. Rigged the top and the next piece, then chunked down 2 or 3 more pieces w/o rigging, and the last 12 feet or so was just dropping the stem. No injuries, no damage to house or property, etc.

Also, took down another tree this summer. 75-foot red maple in back yard, 3 feet in diam @ 2 feet above ground, 10 feet from house, 5 feet from deck. Limbed if from down to up (lots of rigging), then topped it to 45-foot twin spars, then dropped the spars. Again, no injuries. Also, no damage to my deck, house or the neighbor's house, the latter an issue as several 10 to 12-inch diam limbs hung partially over it.

In both cases, safety was the first priority. Planning and preparation were commensurate.

By the way, all who told me running a chainsaw in a tree (used in both removals) was challenging were correct. It is an interesting mental hurdle. Definitely not something I'd choose as weekend relaxation.

Anyway, just wanted to bring closure to this. In particular, wanted to leave no questions as to whether this had ended up in the fatalities category.

Thanks to all those who provided positive input to the original thread, and even to some of those who offered sarcasm and abuse. To the latter group, you strengthened my resolve.

 

[Dadatwins]

I am glad the removal went well and no injury to report, just one question based on all the research and reading you did before starting the job, did the job seem easier on paper than actually being in the tree?