List of Upgrades to Vermeer SC252

[marne]

And the winner is:

[photo=large]4176[/photo]

not my 252, but I thought it's worth sharing in this thread, found it in the bay, listed beside item #232195513135.

What a great idea, sadly without any specs, pretty shure it could use a 35hp not at least because of the added pump, anyway nice. With such skills repowering should not have been an issue.

Low center of gravity. infinite sweep arc, guess the undercarriage adds 450lbs, substract some weight from axle, hydromotor, wheels and chassis, so probably still lightweigt.

 

[stumper63]

Hey Marne, which Craigslist did you see this on, what City?

Stumper 63

 

[marne]

Stumper, it's listed on ebay uk the city is Malvern.

 

[Arboristo]

Hi guys,

does anyone of you know the hydraulic motor's brand and type?

The parts list says it is a 15,9 cubic inch hydromotor but there's no other information. The type plate on the hydromotor is gone..
The information would be handy as I'm going to convert my sc252 into a 2-speed.

Any information or help would be welcome. Has any of you guys done a 2 speed conversion maybe?

Arboristo

 

[Ross Speir]

I know this is for the 252 however I am thinking of buying a 222 with a blown motor. Is the 222 capable of handling the briggs 35. The machine looks smaller, just not sure how much lighter it is built. Thanks.

 

[Arboristo]

Ross, even the 252 is not capable of handling the briggs 35 well enough. The frame, the pivots, the belts, bearings, it is all too lightly built unfortunately. It all wears 4 to 5 times as fast and you'll have to repair, weld and fix frequently. Almost every month I have to replace the grinding wheel bearings for example. They're not expensive, but the one on the belt side is a lot of work as I always have to grind it off. It eats a lot of belts too. So, if you want to upgrade, you will have to invest in upgrading all these weak spots too. You'll have to invest a lot of time and money...buying a new or used 363 is a much better idea.

 

[Ross Speir]

Ross, even the 252 is not capable of handling the briggs 35 well enough. The frame, the pivots, the belts, bearings, it is all too lightly built unfortunately. It all wears 4 to 5 times as fast and you'll have to repair, weld and fix frequently. Almost every month I have to replace the grinding wheel bearings for example. They're not expensive, but the one on the belt side is a lot of work as I always have to grind it off. It eats a lot of belts too. So, if you want to upgrade, you will have to invest in upgrading all these weak spots too. You'll have to invest a lot of time and money...buying a new or used 363 is a much better idea.

I'm getting it because of the low price. I'll probably put a 23 Honda on it(that was the original plan). Close to stock motor. Any input on a green wheel? I'm not trying to make a living with it, I'm a maintenance man by trade and wanted to have something to play with and maybe make a few dollars on the side.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[Arboristo]

a 23 HP is for sure a waste of time building up your 222 and once up there a waste of time grinding. 4 HP less is a lot bc 27 hp is already too small these days. I'd say the best thing in your case is to find a second hand 27HP Kohler. I think a 27hp grinds twice as fast as 23HP.

 

[Arboristo]

I don't know where you live Ross, but where I live a 27HP is economically depreciated. They can no longer compete with the hourly output of the newest small machines of 35 - 38 HP. It takes a guy with a 27HP two hours to grind where his competition takes it only 30 minutes or less for the same job. The guy with the new machine sets the prices for the others.
So if you want to start this business in a competitive area you'll have to buy at least the same machine + start working for lower prices than your existing competitor does. Only than you can take some of his business. However only for a short while as he will respond very soon and lower his prices too. You as a newcomer won't make any money anymore while he still does, cause he's experienced, has lower costs etc. So your only real option to start in a competitive market is to buy a much better machine than anyone else has. Some market research is important.

 

[stumper63]

Ross, even the 252 is not capable of handling the briggs 35 well enough. The frame, the pivots, the belts, bearings, it is all too lightly built unfortunately. It all wears 4 to 5 times as fast and you'll have to repair, weld and fix frequently. Almost every month I have to replace the grinding wheel bearings for example. They're not expensive, but the one on the belt side is a lot of work as I always have to grind it off. It eats a lot of belts too. So, if you want to upgrade, you will have to invest in upgrading all these weak spots too. You'll have to invest a lot of time and money...buying a new or used 363 is a much better idea.

Hey Ross, I sure had a different experience when I put the 35hp Vanguard on my 252. Had no noticeable difference in wear between the 25hp Kohler and the 35hp Briggs. Cutter wheel bearings lasted 400-500 hrs, belts lasted the same, never a crack in any welds or frame parts. Wonder if there was an alignment issue on the bearings?? The weak spot was if you let the small pulley on the jackshaft that goes to the cutter wheel belt wear down (inside grooves get worn and can't grip belt), which it did on either engine after about 800 hrs, then cutter wheel belts would not last. Just use a straightedge across the pulley to see if all the tops of the v's are same height. Pulley was less than $50.

When the 26.5hp Kohler EFI dies on my 292 it's gonna get an upgrade, probably the Kohler EFI 38 hp. Only change will be engine and clutch. The Vermeer 292 (26.5hp) and the 362 (35hp) are the exact same machine except the engine, clutch, and hydraulic steering. That said, the bearings and belts are much beefier than the 252 to start with. Usually get about 450-500 hrs on the cutter wheel belts, 750 hrs on the cutter wheel bearings, and replaced clutch once, just about to hit 2K hrs now.

Haven't had any experience with a 222, but worth a try it would seem, esp if rest of machine is in good shape.

Stumper63

 

[Arboristo]

Hi Stumper,
why did you go from 35hp 252 to a 26,5hp sc292? How's a sc292 to operate with the belt cover on the other side?

I'm shocked to hear you get 750 hrs from the cutter wheel bearings. I find that almost unbelievable as mine last between 60 and 80 hours. The alignment is always straight. I changed the small pulley twice last year, and went through 3 or 4 cutter wheel belts. The clutch is actually the only thing that manages well. I do run the 37hp EFi though.

 

[stumper63]

Hey Arboristo,

Yeah, the 750 hrs on cutter wheel bearings is on the 292, they are a much beefier double bearing. I used to get between 450-500 hrs on the 252 with the 35hp. I always used the Vermeer bearings, which were about $85 each or so, not the $25 ones on ebay that fit, but are built a little cheaper it seems. Where are you sourcing your bearings from?
Also, on the 252 it seems like the shaft always gotten eaten up on the operator side when the inner race of the bearing came loose, almost knurled the shaft. Maybe I ran them a bit too long.....the 292 bearing is about twice the width so holds onto the shaft much better, never had one come loose.
Surprised to hear about the belt issue since you seem to have all the bases covered. Not sure what else, I did have to change the large pulley on the cutter wheel one time as it wore down too. What is happening when you have to replace the belt? Does it break, or the v grooves worn? Just can't keep it from slipping?

I replaced the 35hp 252 because the whole machine was pretty old and tired, a 99 model. Vermeer had just come out with the 292, mine was the 10th off the assembly line. The 292 was rated at 29hp, but right when they came out the power rating standard changed so they had to call it a 26.5. The machine actually says its a 29hp. So the 37hp you're running now is prob equivalent to an old 40hp at least.

I really do like the belts both being on the side away from the operator. View of grinding is vastly improved. Also having 10" more swing width is amazing, I didn't think it would be such a big deal at first, but it seems to cut grinding time down quite a bit on bigger stumps where you have to reposition.
Looking forward to putting on a big block some time, but hard to justify until this one gets tired. At nearly 2K hours it isn't using any oil yet, just pretty religious on all filter and fluid changes.

How do you like the 37 hp EFI? My only complaint on the 35hp I had was it didn't last very long compared to the Kohler small blocks I had. When I sold the machine I had about 1500 hours on the 35hp and it was blowing oil pretty bad. My first 252 with 25hp Kohler had 4300 hrs on it when I sold it, was using a little oil, but otherwise hadn't given me a lick of trouble. That's why I was debating on whether to put the Kohler 38 EFI or stick with the newer 37hp Briggs EFI.

Stumper 63

 

[Arboristo]

Hi Stumper,

- the EFI is a great engine and so much stronger then the 35HP. However, it is actually way too strong for the power transmission on the sc252. I'm not able to use it's full power as it gets the belts slipping easily. That's likely why I go through so many bearings and belts: I have to tighten them much more than the bearings can handle to avoid the belts from burning. However with the 27 hp and 35HP, I did also use a lot of bearings, but not as many as I do now though.
The quality bearings I use is good, the Vermeer bearings don't last any longer.
I think the 35HP is a really great engine too although I only got 1200 hrs out of it. It was my own fault though as I did not fix an oil leak coming from the valve head. This caused sand building up on the head and on a warm summer day the head cracked due to not getting enough air-cooling. I got it fixed but after that the engine used oil, which I think is unhealthy for me, so I bought a new engine. The EFI is the exact same engine as the 35HP.

I'm currently upgrading the upper shaft to 1,5 inch. I'm also planning to upgrade the cutter wheel shaft to 1,75 inch. That is probably the size of the 292's cutter wheel shaft? Can you tell me the type of bearings you use on the sc292?

I replace the belts because they break/burn.

How's the part made where the swing beam is attached to on the sc292? Is it the same as on the sc252? Or did they make it heavier? I had to buy a new one too as the old one was completely worn. I think bc of the heavier engine, which is an extra 15 kilo's or somewhere around that number. Because this part was worn, I kept changing the belly pivot, like 3 times a year.

Also I'm heaving the problem of the shaft getting eaten on the cutter wheel, as well as the upper shaft. Two cutter wheel shafts last year and now I have to replace it again. I brought it to a laser cladding company. It's much more expensive then a new shaft but around x-mass Vermeer was closed for two weeks and I didn't have the time to wait. Hopefully the upgrading helps..would be great if you can give me the type of bearings you are using.

 

[stumper63]

The bearings on the 292 I get from Vermeer, but the tag on them says Link Belt B5227053. They are a double bearing, so much wider than the 252 bearing. Also a lot more expensive, $230 ea I think last time. But for the longer wear and less hassle of multiple replacements they are great. And they don't wear out the shaft. Not sure if you could adapt them to the 252 or not. They are 1.75" ID bearings.
I also upgraded the jackshaft on the old 252 to 1.5", never had a problem after that. I also had my cutter wheel shaft rebuilt one time, was cheaper than a new one but still only lasted so long with those narrow bearings. But i bought several shafts too. Think the most I got was two sets of bearings on one shaft.

One thing that I had trouble with on the 35hp was the Donaldson Filter housing. Replaced it twice. The design is not good as the filters push against the swivel elbow where the hose attaches. That swivel is just attached by some plastic ears that come loose, and when it does it leaves a gap where unfiltered air can bypass the outer filter. The inner filter can't handle it all. So I may have had some dirty air get into the engine too that hastened it's demise. The Kohler 26.5 on the 292, and the 37 or 38 Kohler uses a Donaldson filter also, but a different type housing that won't wear. Another reason why I am thinking of going Kohler, but maybe the 37 Briggs EFI uses a different housing???

Are you asking about the yoke where the swing beam attaches to? If so the 292 uses a cast iron version, not a welded plate version like my older 252 did. But it looks just the same otherwise. By belly pivot are you talking the vertical pivot point in the yoke? Or the horizontal pivot under the machine? I had to replace the bearings on the vertical pivot due to my own fault of not keeping them greased enough on the 292. Hardly ever greased them on the 252, but I guess they are designed to be kept plenty greased. i give em 2 pumps a week as schedule calls out now.
I just replaced the horizontal pivot under the machine a month ago or so. Bushings were worn a little but most of slop was due to metal on metal wear of yoke against frame. Had to weld a little 1/8" plate on the frame to tighten up worn area, now as tight as a new machine again.

Stumper63

 

[Arboristo]

Link Belt B5227053 must be the Vermeer part nr I guess as I cannot find a bearing matching this number. I think they must be roller bearings instead of ball bearings and can carry a lot more vertical pressure. I'm sure they must be available in the bearing store much cheaper. I feel I have to get some of these. Is your cutterhead or cutter shaft also wider as the sc252?

I had the exact same problem with the Donaldson Filter housing! On the EFI I do not have this problem so is likely a different air cleaner.

Yes, I was asking about the yoke. On my 2008 sc252 it is cast iron, so must be the same. I noticed though that it was slightly wider than the frame, so I had to weld a plate to. In fact, I had a lot of welding to do as the bending yoke had sort of made the plates on the frame hollow. It was a complicated welding job to get it all straight again. I never had problems with the vertical pivot. The belly pivot is a bit wrong design I would say..metal on metal, 2 bearing would have been much better. I thought about changing that, but it's too much work.

Do you have problems with excessive wear the cylinder bushings and pivots too? I drilled grease nipples in the pivots, that way they last a few months longer. I'm going to replace the plastic ones with bronze bushings which I can make on the lathe.

 

[stumper63]

The number is on a Link Belt tag. It may be possible that it is a BS... instead of a B5..., you could try that. Possible it is a proprietary bearing Link Belt makes for Vermeer.
Shaft is quite a bit different on the 292. Are you close to a Vermeer dealer? Perhaps they stock them and you could compare differences at the counter. You could take a look at the cutter wheel bearings then too, take some measurements, etc.

For the swing cylinder ends on my 252 I tried using needle bearings instead of the Garmax bushing from Vermeer. Installed grease zerks. Didn't last much longer than the Garmax. I replace them about every 200 hrs. on the 292. What are they, $20/set? Cheap/easy to install. Haven't replaced the pins yet, but prob should next time, they are wearing down now with 2K hrs.

I attribute some things as trying to keep the price point down, just wouldn't be right to make everything easily replaceable when worn, LOL.

Stumper63

 

[Arboristo]

I'm not that far from a Vermeer dealer..however they aren't very cooperative when you have unusual questions I learned in the past. Especially not when mentioning I'm making changes to my machine Their solution is to my problems is always to buy a larger grinder. In a way they are right, but I just love the simplicity and usability of my sc252

2k hours is really long for those pins!...for some reason your machines wear a lot slower than mine

 

[Arboristo]

BS227053 is indeed a proprietary bearing. Rexnord website says it is a non-catalog product. That's makes it hard to find the exact same bearing or a different brand alternative. My bearing supplier needs a cataloged number to give me alternatives. He says he can't give me a bearing just by the type 'spherical double roller bearing' 1-3/4". So, I'm stuck for now, or I just have to order the 362 bearings from Vermeer.

 

[Arboristo]

Stumper63, what type oil pump is on your sc292? I need another oil pump as mine does not have enough power. A seal kit costs over 200 euro.

 

[stumper63]

Hydraulic pump is what you want, right? It's a Parker brand. SN: J0413-07231. PN: 3319122061

Probably proprietary too, LOL

stumper63