Milling: slabs VS dimensional lumber

[300zx_tt]

Hello all,
I recently started milling with an ms660 and a panther chainsaw mill. I Started out as a firewood guy but felt bad hacking up some beautiful white oaks and maples for firewood. Looked into a bandsaw mill but I ended up with a chainsaw mill instead. Production wise it's not efficient, which was fine at the time, I figured if I sold a slab or two here and there it's all gravy, just a couple extra bucks in my pocket. Now I'm looking to turn this into a profitable operation on my days off/ weekends. I'm currently sitting on 3 large white oak logs and 2 nice red oak logs. I'm having a hard time deciding how to mill them. I'm set up for slabs, but I think it's worth more as quarter sawn lumber. I'm stuck as to what I should do? I can't swing a bandsaw at the moment but I could get one in a year or so.

What's more valuable ~30" wide white oak slabs or quarter sawn white oak?

 

[Brian72]

Do you have any current customers? Maybe chase a few leads and try to get something set up before you mill. I know the quarter sawn red oak is amazing. Maybe you could hire a local mill to cut for you. The slabs will be nice too but only if you can sell them. I help a local sawyer on my days off and he gives me a nice break on milling logs for me. Maybe this could work for you. Everybody's situation is different. As you mentioned, the biggest drawback of the chainsaw mill is it's so time-consuming. I personally just use the chainsaw mill for big stuff that won't fit on the mill or stuff that I don't have the ability to move.

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[300zx_tt]

Do you have any current customers? Maybe chase a few leads and try to get something set up before you mill. I know the quarter sawn red oak is amazing. Maybe you could hire a local mill to cut for you. The slabs will be nice too but only if you can sell them. I help a local sawyer on my days off and he gives me a nice break on milling logs for me. Maybe this could work for you. Everybody's situation is different. As you mentioned, the biggest drawback of the chainsaw mill is it's so time-consuming. I personally just use the chainsaw mill for big stuff that won't fit on the mill or stuff that I don't have the ability to move.

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I have several woodworkers I've met, one guy stopped me at WaWa while I was hauling firewood, he bought a couple of chunks off me for bowls. My BIL has a coworker that's part of a woodworking club 5-6 guys all rent space together. They are all interested in slabs for tables and dimensional lumber for bookcases, cabinets and other furniture. I just don't know what is more in demand or what is more marketable outside of my existing potential buyers, slabs or 1x material. There aren't many sawmills around. I'm just north of Philadelphia in (Lansdale, pa) I see you're a PA guy yourself, where about in the state are you?

 

[Boogedy_Man]

My opinion is that quartersawing oak is a job for a bandmill....one with hydraulics....and some sort of forklift.

While the wood might be worth more quartersawn, you'd be losing your behind on the value of your own time and labor.

I'm not entirely sure it'd be worth more, either. Quartersawing a big oak log into 5/4 boards would be an extremely wasteful process.

You could always estimate the yield if quartersawn and price your slabs accordingly. I would not be surprised if the resulting price was too low.

 

[Brian72]

I have several woodworkers I've met, one guy stopped me at WaWa while I was hauling firewood, he bought a couple of chunks off me for bowls. My BIL has a coworker that's part of a woodworking club 5-6 guys all rent space together. They are all interested in slabs for tables and dimensional lumber for bookcases, cabinets and other furniture. I just don't know what is more in demand or what is more marketable outside of my existing potential buyers, slabs or 1x material. There aren't many sawmills around. I'm just north of Philadelphia in (Lansdale, pa) I see you're a PA guy yourself, where about in the state are you?

I'm in Berwick. Probably about 3 hours North of you. If you have potential buyers, that's a good start. I'd definitely see if you could get orders before milling. I know the Lansdale area well. I drive through that area quite often. Maybe find a portable bandmill who could come to you. As stated, much better for quarter sawing. I don't know your financial situation but Hudson makes a few very basic bandmills between 2 and 3 thousand. Something I've been considering.

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[Bmac]

I think this post from a woodworker's forum is pretty interesting and speaks to some of your questions;
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/26623-what-would-you-do-with-64-and-84-red-oak/

What it basically states, and I agree, is that the red oak is pretty worthless right now milled 4/4 and is not nearly as nice as white oak quartersawn. The red oak would likely have it's max value as slabs.
The white oak is the wood you really want to quartersaw, woodworkers look for quartersawn white oak. But do you really have a big enough interest base to buy your quartersawn white oak? You really need to hire a bandsaw mill to do it effectively and you need to be careful drying oak. I have quartersawn oak with my chainsaw mill, wasteful and time consuming, but its a hobby for me so I'm not trying to make a buck.
I say if you want to try and make some money with this venture, stick with slabs, it's something you can do now with no extra equipment, a lot of woodworkers seem to have interest in unique slabs, and it is a niche product that your local lumberyard does not offer. If you become the guy in your area that can do slabs and your small group of woodworkers spread the word, this might be a chance to make a few sales, just don't expect to quit your day job.

By the way, just cutting the oak in slabs will give you a few quartersawn board per log. Perhaps stack those separately and see if there is more interest in those. A woodworker with a bandsaw can make 8/4 or 10/4 slabs into 4/4 or 5/4 lumber very easily.

 

[Brian72]

I think this post from a woodworker's forum is pretty interesting and speaks to some of your questions;
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/26623-what-would-you-do-with-64-and-84-red-oak/

What it basically states, and I agree, is that the red oak is pretty worthless right now milled 4/4 and is not nearly as nice as white oak quartersawn. The red oak would likely have it's max value as slabs.
The white oak is the wood you really want to quartersaw, woodworkers look for quartersawn white oak. But do you really have a big enough interest base to buy your quartersawn white oak? You really need to hire a bandsaw mill to do it effectively and you need to be careful drying oak. I have quartersawn oak with my chainsaw mill, wasteful and time consuming, but its a hobby for me so I'm not trying to make a buck.
I say if you want to try and make some money with this venture, stick with slabs, it's something you can do now with no extra equipment, a lot of woodworkers seem to have interest in unique slabs, and it is a niche product that your local lumberyard does not offer. If you become the guy in your area that can do slabs and your small group of woodworkers spread the word, this might be a chance to make a few sales, just don't expect to quit your day job.

By the way, just cutting the oak in slabs will give you a few quartersawn board per log. Perhaps stack those separately and see if there is more interest in those. A woodworker with a bandsaw can make 8/4 or 10/4 slabs into 4/4 or 5/4 lumber very easily.

Very good points. I prefer red oak myself. I just think it's a nicer wood but that's just personal preference. What really matters is the market of the area and just connecting with people. Definitely an enjoyable hobby and the potential to make a few bucks. As you said, the ability to offer what others can't is a nice advantage.

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[ChoppyChoppy]

We sell slabs $100 for a rack full (about a cord of wood). Sometimes people buy them for some arts and crafts thing, but lumber is the much bigger seller.

We've done live edge board once or twice, not a common request.

 

[Boogedy_Man]

That's not the kind of "slabs" he's referring to. He's talking about wide and thick live edge planks.

I'm surprised they're uncommon for you. There's been a good market here.

 

[Brian72]

That's the biggest problem with milling. There's no right answer. Just gotta find that niche in your local market. People will pay hundreds for old beat up barn wood but piss and moan for quality milled stuff.

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[ChoppyChoppy]

That's not the kind of "slabs" he's referring to. He's talking about wide and thick live edge planks.

I'm surprised they're uncommon for you. There's been a good market here.

We mostly sell 1 bys, 2bys and beams. Also do 2 and 3 sided logs for cabins. Have an LT40 Woodmizer.

And.. before someone calls me out, no, it's not mine, it's my friends. He used to be the Woodmizer dealer here in AK.
I run my firewood business at his shop and I also do logging with him and help with Milling and small engine repairs. Kind of a together but seperate thing, one hand washes the other.

I haven't run the Woodmizer. Not that I cant, but he is really good with seeing lumber out of a log. I don't have the experience and saw logs are valuable.

As with anything, it'll certainly vary by market. We are setup to make finish grade lumber. Flooring, siding, molding, kiln and everything. Little demand for it though compared to rough sawn lumber. Do a decent amount of 1x4s, 6s, and 8s for lap siding and board and batten, but it's rough sawn.

It's tough to make it work $× wise doing small orders of finish grade as the kiln is expensive to run and takes ~30 days to dry a load.

I can say with certainty that a making lumber with a chainsaw mill would not work well here. Too much labor and not fast enough. We can do up to 36" on the Woodmizer. Saw logs over that size are quite rare.

 

[Mad Professor]

How long of logs? Box the heart for beams. Know any timber framers?

Take some small pieces of grade off the outer edges.

White oak has some rot resistance so 12/4 decking for trailers. Know any truckers/loggers?

1/4 sawn is a PITA with a CS mill but is nice lumber.

When I worked at a mill, one of the owners did all his floors in oak, white downstairs and red upstairs. His house was a bit overbuilt and he used 12/4 for that too. Floors did not bounce at all. All of our oak back then was sawn into 12/4 for decking. I think most went to building ships.

 

[Cease232]

Quarter sawn white worth more but pointless with a CSM. Red oak is basically worthless.


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[300zx_tt]

Logs are 13' long, the red oak I'm going to slab, the white oaks I might cut into cants and bring to a mill. I need to call a few and see what they'd charge for a job like that.

 

[300zx_tt]

I'm in Berwick. Probably about 3 hours North of you. If you have potential buyers, that's a good start. I'd definitely see if you could get orders before milling. I know the Lansdale area well. I drive through that area quite often. Maybe find a portable bandmill who could come to you. As stated, much better for quarter sawing. I don't know your financial situation but Hudson makes a few very basic bandmills between 2 and 3 thousand. Something I've been considering.

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Framiliar with Berwick, my fiancé went to Bloomsburg so I was up there every other weekend. There was a logging expo up there not too long ago at the fairgrounds. Couldn't make it but it looked decent.

My problem with the bandsaw mill is the width it can cut, all the sub $5,000 mills can only handle a ~20" log, for lumber making that would be ok as I can cut cants with the CSM. But for slabs that won't work for me, most of the stuff I have is 25"-36" diameter.

For now a bandsaw mill is out of the question, planning a wedding and buying a house come first. But I'd love an lt15 wide, that's a ways down the road, after I start making money or I go down in flames. (It will be the former)

 

[Brian72]

Framiliar with Berwick, my fiancé went to Bloomsburg so I was up there every other weekend. There was a logging expo up there not too long ago at the fairgrounds. Couldn't make it but it looked decent.

My problem with the bandsaw mill is the width it can cut, all the sub $5,000 mills can only handle a ~20" log, for lumber making that would be ok as I can cut cants with the CSM. But for slabs that won't work for me, most of the stuff I have is 25"-36" diameter.

For now a bandsaw mill is out of the question, planning a wedding and buying a house come first. But I'd love an lt15 wide, that's a ways down the road, after I start making money or I go down in flames. (It will be the former)

I went to that expo. It was a really good show. Woodmizer had about 5 or 6 mills there, Hudson had a couple. Most of it was geared towards big logging and I was pleasantly surprised at the turnout of equipment and vendors. I managed to save some cash on a stihl ms661 for my chainsaw mill. I'm in the same boat as you with the bandmill. My wallet can't keep up with my need for toys. The Bloomsburg Fair is right around the corner. I believe it starts Sept. 22. Hard to believe it's that time of year already. What kind of milling equipment are you running now?

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[babybart]

Logs are 13' long, the red oak I'm going to slab, the white oaks I might cut into cants and bring to a mill. I need to call a few and see what they'd charge for a job like that.

There is a mobile mill guy on Craigslist Delaware, he charges $80 an hour, to give you an idea... I think it's high but...

 

[300zx_tt]

I went to that expo. It was a really good show. Woodmizer had about 5 or 6 mills there, Hudson had a couple. Most of it was geared towards big logging and I was pleasantly surprised at the turnout of equipment and vendors. I managed to save some cash on a stihl ms661 for my chainsaw mill. I'm in the same boat as you with the bandmill. My wallet can't keep up with my need for toys. The Bloomsburg Fair is right around the corner. I believe it starts Sept. 22. Hard to believe it's that time of year already. What kind of milling equipment are you running now?

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I've been to that fair the last 5 years, always a good time. I'm surprised Hudson or woodmizer doesn't have a booth there, granburg, stihl dealers, husky dealers, nothing related to firewood or milling. Up there it's all tractors and loaders. I'm running an ms660 with a 42" bar and a 48" panther mill.

 

[Brian72]

Nice. I know they get plenty of tractors and equipment but no milling stuff. I'd like to see the logging show continued yearly but I don't think the fair actually runs it. From my understanding, it's put together by some logging council and it's moved to different locations yearly.

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[Brian72]

There is a mobile mill guy on Craigslist Delaware, he charges $80 an hour, to give you an idea... I think it's high but...

I not trying to be rude or combative so please don't take it that way. A good sawyer with a good hydraulic mill could probably do 300 bdft/hr if logs are staged well and off-bearing is quick. Also, a bandmill gives you more product and less waste with the smaller kerf. The convenience of them coming to you is also a big plus. I personally don't think $80/hr. is a bad deal.

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