need help with DRT ascending setup (yo Moss!)

[Plasmech]

Figured the experts in ascenders are chillin' in the recreational land. Yesterday I did what was going to be about as close to a rec. climb as I'll probably ever do. Ascended DRT into a huge beach to change out a tire-swing rope. My setup was as follows: fixed end of the rope was scaffold-knotted to a triple locking fixed 'biner, obviously. Running end ran through a 5-coil prusik which, in addition to a tending pulley, was 'binered to my rope bridge as well. I had a right foot CMI foot ascender and both left and right and ascenders. What I intended to do was pull up with my hands and push with my foot and then with my right hand, while still holding on with my left, tend the slack in the friction hitch so I would not lose any ground. Well this worked, sort of, but man it was *extremely* difficult, used a ton of energy, and was just plain ugly. Half the time I lost half as much ground as I gained. The friction hitch 'biner kept getting all buggered up and cross loaded which really pissed me off, and the prusik just turned into a bundled mess. Obviously I need something else in this system like a different tending pulley. Does anybody have advice and hopefully pictures of a proper DRT hand/foot ascending system? Thank!

Just think, what would Yo Yo Ma and/or Brian Boitano do in this situation?

 

[moss]

What a wicked web of gear complexity you've woven!

I'd go the other direction, figure out the most simple gear configuration to ascend DRT and then add items to improve as needed.

1. The hitch
Are you using a prussik hitch? If so dump it and go with one of the commonly used varieties: VT, Knut, Distel, etc. I use a 4 wrap XT, shown here.

Use an HMS/pear or similar shaped biner inverted. I like knotted eyes on the split-tail, they grab the biner better and slide around less than spliced eyes, everyone has opinions and preferences. Tied eyes are good to start with so you can dial in your split tail length.

2. Slack tending pulley
This is not used for normal ascent, it is used primarily for returning from a limb walk or other situations in the crown when you need to take slack out of the system one-handed. Again, there are many different ways to configure but this is the basic principle. Don't try to use the pulley to take slack out while ascending.

3. Play in the system
You want as little play in the system as possible. You bridge introduces a certain amount of play, the biner/hitch attachment introduces play. Minimize connectors, length of split tail etc. as much as possible.

4. Ascent away from the trunk
To get started off the ground you'll need to hand feed the tail through the foot ascender for a few pulls. If you've minimized play in the system hopefully you can climb with both hands on the rope above the hitch, or one above and one below. While you're ascending the hitch should just ride on the rope. Your foot ascender takes out the slack. When you sit back to rest or when you reach a limb the hitch should grab. Sometimes you need to flick the hitch up to seat it. The hitch will not grab if you don't allow it to take the load. For instance if you take part of the load with the foot ascender when you sit back you'll end up with a knee in your face and you'll be yelling "My hitch won't grab!"

5. Ascent with trunk contact (not body-thrusting)
One foot on the trunk the foot with the CMI or Pantin ascender on the tail. Climb. Works great, much easier than body thrusting. Again, use your foot ascender to take slack out of the system as you climb.

6. Alternate use of handled ascender
Put a handled ascender on the tail below the hitch, put a footloop (double or single) on the handled ascender. You can make a footloop with 8mm rope. Tune the length of the footloop so that when you move the ascender up as high as you can under the hitch, you're in a good position to stand up on the foot loops. You don't want the footloops so high that you're laying on your back as you try to stand on them, it will burn your arms out too fast. Smaller steps are more efficient. You want to keep your body as upright as is practical with this technique. Climbing against the trunk take one foot out of a doubled footloop and put it on the trunk, the other remains on the footloop.

Hope that helps.
-moss

 

[Plasmech]

Moss,

First off, thanks for taking the time, seriously.

OK I was at first using a VT hitch HOWEVER, while playing around close to the ground I had several situations where the climb-line went through that thing like crap through a goose. It was textbook tied too. Apparently it's a bit finicky or something. It scared be enough that I switched to the tried and true 5-coil Prusik.

Why do you suggest dumping the simple Prusik hitch? Thanks.

I see what you mean by ditching the slack tender....it's only hurting in this situation.

I got out Gerry Beranek's Working Climber DVD, series one, and re-watched the part where he goes over DRT ascending. The chapter called "Easy Up" really answered all my questions. It's just a matter of putting a re-direct pulley in the right place as well as getting the entire friction hitch above you at arms length so that you are working your hands and feet all underneath it, that way slack comes out of the equation completely. Do you happen to have said DVD's? Would like to discuss that Prusik and VT more.

What a wicked web of gear complexity you've woven!

I'd go the other direction, figure out the most simple gear configuration to ascend DRT and then add items to improve as needed.

1. The hitch
Are you using a prussik hitch? If so dump it and go with one of the commonly used varieties: VT, Knut, Distel, etc. I use a 4 wrap XT, shown here.

Use an HMS/pear or similar shaped biner inverted. I like knotted eyes on the split-tail, they grab the biner better and slide around less than spliced eyes, everyone has opinions and preferences. Tied eyes are good to start with so you can dial in your split tail length.

2. Slack tending pulley
This is not used for normal ascent, it is used primarily for returning from a limb walk or other situations in the crown when you need to take slack out of the system one-handed. Again, there are many different ways to configure but this is the basic principle. Don't try to use the pulley to take slack out while ascending.

3. Play in the system
You want as little play in the system as possible. You bridge introduces a certain amount of play, the biner/hitch attachment introduces play. Minimize connectors, length of split tail etc. as much as possible.

4. Ascent away from the trunk
To get started off the ground you'll need to hand feed the tail through the foot ascender for a few pulls. If you've minimized play in the system hopefully you can climb with both hands on the rope above the hitch, or one above and one below. While you're ascending the hitch should just ride on the rope. Your foot ascender takes out the slack. When you sit back to rest or when you reach a limb the hitch should grab. Sometimes you need to flick the hitch up to seat it. The hitch will not grab if you don't allow it to take the load. For instance if you take part of the load with the foot ascender when you sit back you'll end up with a knee in your face and you'll be yelling "My hitch won't grab!"

5. Ascent with trunk contact (not body-thrusting)
One foot on the trunk the foot with the CMI or Pantin ascender on the tail. Climb. Works great, much easier than body thrusting. Again, use your foot ascender to take slack out of the system as you climb.

6. Alternate use of handled ascender
Put a handled ascender on the tail below the hitch, put a footloop (double or single) on the handled ascender. You can make a footloop with 8mm rope. Tune the length of the footloop so that when you move the ascender up as high as you can under the hitch, you're in a good position to stand up on the foot loops. You don't want the footloops so high that you're laying on your back as you try to stand on them, it will burn your arms out too fast. Smaller steps are more efficient. You want to keep your body as upright as is practical with this technique. Climbing against the trunk take one foot out of a doubled footloop and put it on the trunk, the other remains on the footloop.

Hope that helps.
-moss

 

[moss]

I was wondering when you said the prussik wasn't holding if you meant a prussik hitch or if you were referring to a specific climbing hitch. Ya, VT is finicky, like I said, take a look at some of the other hitches, Distel, Knut, XT etc. you might find you like them better. Prussik is a useful hitch but not as your main climbing hitch. Once a Prussik is loaded it tends to bind up, it usually takes two hands to free it it up. You want a climbing hitch to grab when you load it and release when you unload it so the rope will tail through it easily.

Also, I'm not saying get rid of the slack tending pulley, I'm saying that while you're ascending it's not doing anything, it's used when you're up in the tree.

This is not to be confused with setting up a pulley to advance your hitch automatically, that's a whole 'nother animal, more useful for advancing a Blake's Hitch.

You're probably going to reach a point where you're going to want the Hitchclimber pulley, it solves a lot of problems when you're using an eye-to-eye split tail on a floating bridge harness.

I don't have the DVD but I understand what Gerry is describing. Definitely a valid and widely accepted approach. I like my hitch low and I pull above it. In this video you can see my DRT climbing style
-moss

Moss,

First off, thanks for taking the time, seriously.

OK I was at first using a VT hitch HOWEVER, while playing around close to the ground I had several situations where the climb-line went through that thing like crap through a goose. It was textbook tied too. Apparently it's a bit finicky or something. It scared be enough that I switched to the tried and true 5-coil Prusik.

Why do you suggest dumping the simple Prusik hitch? Thanks.

I see what you mean by ditching the slack tender....it's only hurting in this situation.

I got out Gerry Beranek's Working Climber DVD, series one, and re-watched the part where he goes over DRT ascending. The chapter called "Easy Up" really answered all my questions. It's just a matter of putting a re-direct pulley in the right place as well as getting the entire friction hitch above you at arms length so that you are working your hands and feet all underneath it, that way slack comes out of the equation completely. Do you happen to have said DVD's? Would like to discuss that Prusik and VT more.

 

[ClimbinArbor]

i wouldnt start out with a vt hitch, for the reasons mentioned, especially slippage lol.

dont forget body thrusting, or since your using a micro pully, hand over hand.

try to put a line in where the rope is pulling you back towards the tree. pull on the running end of the rope while thrusting your hips forward, yes like that... set your not at ground level, pull up 5 or 10 feet then reset your knot. repeat as needed. this requires alot of upper arm strength, especially to hold the rope while pulling out slack. it may not always be applicable when you need to skywalk, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[Plasmech]

What do you think of the Schwabisch Prusik as opposed to the French Prusik? I saw your pic of the XT , what exactly is different from the VT?

I was wondering when you said the prussik wasn't holding if you meant a prussik hitch or if you were referring to a specific climbing hitch. Ya, VT is finicky, like I said, take a look at some of the other hitches, Distel, Knut, XT etc. you might find you like them better. Prussik is a useful hitch but not as your main climbing hitch. Once a Prussik is loaded it tends to bind up, it usually takes two hands to free it it up. You want a climbing hitch to grab when you load it and release when you unload it so the rope will tail through it easily.

Also, I'm not saying get rid of the slack tending pulley, I'm saying that while you're ascending it's not doing anything, it's used when you're up in the tree.

This is not to be confused with setting up a pulley to advance your hitch automatically, that's a whole 'nother animal, more useful for advancing a Blake's Hitch.

You're probably going to reach a point where you're going to want the Hitchclimber pulley, it solves a lot of problems when you're using an eye-to-eye split tail on a floating bridge harness.

I don't have the DVD but I understand what Gerry is describing. Definitely a valid and widely accepted approach. I like my hitch low and I pull above it. In this video you can see my DRT climbing style
-moss

 

[moss]

What do you think of the Schwabisch Prusik as opposed to the French Prusik? I saw your pic of the XT , what exactly is different from the VT?

See the links in the next post below for the answers to your first question.

On an XT the tails cross just below the coils, reverse direction and then braid (examine the photos I posted earlier in the thread, you'll see the difference). On a VT the braid starts just below the coils. The cross below the coils on an XT retains the form of the hitch better during loading and unloading cycles, the VT is a "looser" or less structured hitch IMHO.
-moss

 

[moss]

Try these:


Hitch info addendum

Son of a Hitch


-moss

 

[Plasmech]

This article addendum covers the "French Prusik" and the Schwabisch:
http://www.#############/pdf/Apr07-cc.pdf

This article is a comprehensive overview of friction hitches:
http://www.#############/pdf/0505_geneology.pdf

On an XT the tails cross just below the coils, reverse direction and then braid (examine the photos I posted earlier in the thread, you'll see the difference). On a VT the braid starts just below the coils. The cross below the coils on an XT retains the form of the hitch better during loading and unloading cycles, the VT is a "looser" or less structured hitch IMHO.
-moss

Links not working....

 

[moss]

Links not working....

It's fixed, I bypassed the censors, retry the links above
-moss

 

[moss]

Links working now.

I like your two legged foot lock using the pantin.

Thanks, I use it SRT as well.
-moss

 

[moss]

FYI here's how you footlock with one foot on the tail. I combine this with the Pantin so both feet load the tail side-by-side. To climb move the Pantin foot up first, then move the "footlock" foot up next to the Pantin foot, stand up and repeat. When you move the foot with the loop on it up, tip your toe upwards, when you lock it tip your toe slightly downward, pretty much the same foot movement you have to do on a Pantin anyway. You could do it with two Pantins but you'd be a. wasting money, b. can't get your feet side-by-side to stand on the tail.

This is for the right foot, reverse it to your left foot if your ascender is on your right foot

Lock

Release (moving foot up next to Pantin)

Normal climbing situation the weight of the tail below your foot self tends the rope when you lift your foot up to advance.
-moss

 

[lync]

2 tips if using a foot ascender on right foot place the sole of your left foot on top of your right foots shoe laces, press down with both feet at the same time, keeping them under your arse. try to use a friction saver if possibile.
corey

 

[Plasmech]

Some really good info in this thread. Thanks guys!

 

[moss]

2 tips if using a foot ascender on right foot place the sole of your left foot on top of your right foots shoe laces, press down with both feet at the same time, keeping them under your arse. try to use a friction saver if possibile.
corey

Agreed. the reason I use a single loop footlock for the other foot is so my left foot (and knee) isn't twisted when I load the tail. I'm an over 50 geezer so little things like that make a difference in the long run reducing pain.
-moss

 

[Plasmech]

Huh? You're over 50? You look like you're in your 30's. You still look like a "dude".

Agreed. the reason I use a single loop footlock for the other foot is so my left foot (and knee) isn't twisted when I load the tail. I'm an over 50 geezer so little things like that make a difference in the long run reducing pain.
-moss

 

[moss]

That'll make my wife laugh. Tree climbing is great physical and mental exercise, it definitely keeps me sharp and feeling younger than I'm supposed to be feeling for my age.
-moss

 

[Plasmech]

That'll make my wife laugh. Tree climbing is great physical and mental exercise, it definitely keeps me sharp and feeling younger than I'm supposed to be feeling for my age.
-moss

I could have sworn you were a bro, a homey, a dude, a schmo...

 

[ClimbinArbor]

he is.
just an over 50 bro, homey, dude lol.

definently get a friction saver. i use the leather horseshoe, its great for keeping rope clean, and it has a bit more friction than ring and rings.

the schwabishk(sp) is a nice easy hitch to work with. i use one and ive never had any problems out of it. it does get tight with a good load, but all you have to do is bend the knot once or twice and its good again.

also, you guys that are pantin and foot locking DdRT... doesnt the tail being secured below your waist restrict your movement when humping up? seems like more trouble than its worth to me. unless your in space, in which case i wouldnt be caught dead without one lol. sometimes ill put on a pantin and not use it on the ascent, but later in the canopy.

 

[moss]

also, you guys that are pantin and foot locking DdRT... doesnt the tail being secured below your waist restrict your movement when humping up? seems like more trouble than its worth to me. unless your in space, in which case i wouldnt be caught dead without one lol. sometimes ill put on a pantin and not use it on the ascent, but later in the canopy.

I save hump'n for short moves in the tree, going up the trunk from the ground one foot on the Pantin the other foot on trunk, you can go as fast as your heart and lungs will let you.
-moss