tomtrees58
Addicted to ArboristSite
i posted this months ago and some one last year it works ok used it 1 time its on the bench if your good just a file works best
New chain sharpening tool
- Thread starter Fallguy1960
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Rakaucutter
ArboristSite Lurker
Glad to here it can do what was advertised. My biggest issue with hand filing is consistency some days I am a machine the next all thumbs. I received a e-mail from Timberline they are working on a jig that will have a 10 degree angle for milling chains. Now a adjustable raker gauge?[/QUOTE]
Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that!
Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter.
Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.
Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that!
Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter.
Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.
Rakaucutter
ArboristSite Lurker
I'd love my salary in Aussie dollars!!! Yeah I couldn't stomach the markup that some importers put on gear from the states. I'd rather bypass them completely and order from the US. Smokingly quick delivery from there to lil ol' NZ.
I've got the 7/32 and it's a perfect fit for my 3/8 stihl full chisel chain on a 20" stihl bar. Find the 13/64 that the Stihl guy told me to use for the hand file was a tad small in diameter...only just too small. 7/32 is superb.
JasonMS660
ArboristSite Lurker
Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that!
Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter.
Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.[/QUOTE]
Good idea Rakaucutter, I took the plunge and ordered one today. I ordered two cutters to get me going. Let us know how you go with the hand file in between, might save on the carbide cutters. Hey mate, if you want to sharpen a different (smaller chain) do you just order the right size cutter to suit? Anyway, thanks for the posts :msp_thumbup:
Rakaucutter
ArboristSite Lurker
Good idea Rakaucutter, I took the plunge and ordered one today. I ordered two cutters to get me going. Let us know how you go with the hand file in between, might save on the carbide cutters. Hey mate, if you want to sharpen a different (smaller chain) do you just order the right size cutter to suit? Anyway, thanks for the posts :msp_thumbup:[/QUOTE]
Yeah you do....site I got it from had them for 20 bucks each. Dammit I should have ordered a few extra! They look like they will long outlast a normal file...they eat the metal off those teeth.... great tool.
Fallguy1960
ArboristSite Member
Bob I know you are in Australia, but what is the brand of digital angle finder that you are using when you are filing your rakers?
mikebrownell
ArboristSite Lurker
As far as the Timberline goes: it's a great concept, especially the carbide, and looks to be of good quality. That being said, there's NO sharpening guide I'd spend triple digits on. Atop almost had me, but a 13/64" file (and FOP for depth gauges) is my choice until I find metal in a tree. Then I grind, which leads me to this: if you can't grind a tooth without blueing it, something's wrong. The burr on a ground tooth is about the thinnest, most heat intolerant thing in the sharpening zone, even more so than the actual cutting edge. Referring back to a previous post where one fellow believes some annealing HAS to occur with ANY grinding- B.S.! Far as I know, any modern cutter is made of chromed steel. And any metallurgist will tell you: with steel (and it's chroming), a visible color change will take place at temps that affect the hardness, period. Starts at a straw yellow, then brown, purple, blue, and so on. If the sharpened edge and/or burr are not turning brown/purple/blue (>500*F), no noticeable heat treatment has taken place. Had to get that out there, grinders get a bad rap from uninformed users. A file, used correctly, will give a keener edge for the most part. But there's no reason a rocked-out chain sharpened correctly on a grinder would perform far behind. Now find a hardware store or wherever that takes time to grind correctly...
0.025" is only appropriate for a brand new chain. For a cutter to continue to cut efficiently as it wears, the raker depth should progressively increase. A new cutter has a raker height of 0.025 and the gullet is nominally 0.25" When the gullet is half an inch wide the raker depth should be around 0.05" otherwise it will simply not grab enough wood and progressively make more and more dust. The ratio of gullet width to raker height should be around 10 and this will generate a raker-wood-cutter angle of ~5.7º. Carlton File-O-Plates (FOPs) generate an angle of around 4.5º which is IMHO too shallow. This raker angle is by no means a fixed quantity and will vary with type of wood, power of saw and length of bar/Chain. In 30" Aussie hardwood with a 880 around 6º works for me other people milling smaller softer wood use 7 or 7.5º. This method of setting the rakers (progressive raker depth setting) becomes more and more important (much more than cutter shape and smoothness) as the chain wears. Everyone I knows who tried this ended up being able to optimise their cutting (especially with older chains) in ways they have not been able to do before.
Don't be embarrassed - it is what it is. I got mine cheap so I still use it. The bumps will become significant when you use progressive raker depth setting.
This you need to learn CSM - ChainSaw Mill
Then if you apply the progressive raker depth setting you will be even more impressed.
See above and check this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/237919.htm
I have 3 DAFs for my various woodworking activities.
I also use these to assess and remove twist in the log rails
One is called a Wixey, the other I bought from Lee Valley and is called a Tilt box, and the third is a chinese no brand version which works when it feels like it.
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Fallguy1960
ArboristSite Member
Thanks Bob
i'm using the husqvarna filing guide which is similar in concept to the file-o-plate and, i believe progressively increases the raker setting and the top wears. it also lets you choose between a high and low setting, based on the wood being cut. i use it two set to teeth and then set up the 511a grinder to duplicate my filing.
to me CSM means college of san mateo. i prefer to communicate in english or spanish.
thank you very much for the link. i'll read thru it. i'll also pick up an angle finder.
cheers
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jrhannum
ArboristSite Member
anybody made it work at 10 degrees?
The first post on this thread pondered whether the Timberline rig could be jimmied to set the carbide burr at ripping-chain angles (versus x-cutting 25-30 degrees); I'm about to order one with extra burrs and wonder if a tweak has been devised?
The first post on this thread pondered whether the Timberline rig could be jimmied to set the carbide burr at ripping-chain angles (versus x-cutting 25-30 degrees); I'm about to order one with extra burrs and wonder if a tweak has been devised?
JasonMS660
ArboristSite Lurker
Looking at it I cannot honestly see why they could make an additional guide for 10deg just. Like they offer the 35deg etc. I ordered one on tree stuff and check to see if there was a 10deg die but nothing available. An older post on here raised the same issue however hasn't seemed to be addressed. There is a bit of discussion regarding the Carlton chains though nothing on ripping chins. If they could it would be fantastic or CSMs, then it would be a matter of setting the rackers.
Yep the Husky guide is a semi-progressive one like the FOP is a semi progressive one. I haven't measured the Husky guide but have used one and I found the lowest raker setting was still too high for older cutters.
This thread discusses raker settings in some detail and from this it is clear that two raker settings are just not enough for milling to cover the range of wood hardness, B&C length, and CS power. The OP in that thread is using a 24" bar on a 3120 in softwoods and the fact that he cannot bog the saw suggests he can use an even higher raker angle than he is currently using.
To optimise cutting speed a raker guide would need to be able to set the raker angles from about 5º to say 10º in 0.5º, or at least 1º, increments. I can understand why a company would not risk selling such a product as a newbie setting the rakers to 10º risks serious of kickback especially on older cutters.
timberline for milling chain
i can see two ways of designing a 10 degree sharpening jig. both would use a single cutter guide dead center in the jig. the first method would be to drill the bore for the guide at ten degrees and would require that both ends of the jig be threaded for the chain stop. to change sides you would swap the chain stop to the other end. the other method would be to drill for the guide at zero degrees, 90 degrees to the chain, then bore the guide with a 10 degree angle and turn the guide 180 degrees to change sides.
i have heard that the the owner of timberline is working on the problem but i wonder if there would be enough demand to pay for it.
i can see two ways of designing a 10 degree sharpening jig. both would use a single cutter guide dead center in the jig. the first method would be to drill the bore for the guide at ten degrees and would require that both ends of the jig be threaded for the chain stop. to change sides you would swap the chain stop to the other end. the other method would be to drill for the guide at zero degrees, 90 degrees to the chain, then bore the guide with a 10 degree angle and turn the guide 180 degrees to change sides.
i have heard that the the owner of timberline is working on the problem but i wonder if there would be enough demand to pay for it.
Greenland South
ArboristSite Operative
Sent an email to Timberline yesterday, had a response today. That is a fast response.
My question and their answer;
"Just curious to know if you will be offering you sharpener with a bushing for cross cut chain?"
Hello Paul,
That is something we hope to have later this year. Probably in the fall.
Thank you,
Phil Krantz
My question and their answer;
"Just curious to know if you will be offering you sharpener with a bushing for cross cut chain?"
Hello Paul,
That is something we hope to have later this year. Probably in the fall.
Thank you,
Phil Krantz
BobL-
I'm suffering some confusion about depth gauges. i sharpened a semi-chisel chain with the timberline sharpener. it is a 3/8" and i used a 7/32" cutter. i set the depth gauges using a stihl universal chain and bar tool, then took them down a bit more since the chain had some wear on it. i tried to cut a cookie with it and found it useless. i had to use a grinder to deepen the gullets, then sharpened again with the timberline and achieved enough hook to make it self feed. at that point i addressed the depth gauges again. this chain is the type that has a "bump" link for kickback and the husqvarna filing guide doesn't work on it, ergo the stihl tool. the stihl tool showed the rakers to be just a little high so out of curiosity i measured using a vernier callipers from top of tooth to bar and top of raker to bar. it measured a -.8mm and i was able to repeat that on all cutters that i measured. to clarify, my stihl tool showed my depth gauges to be too high by a few tenths of a mm and my callipers showed them to be low by .2mm. i'll try to get some photos today. another thing i'm thinking is that it would be wise to switch to a 3/16" carbide burr for sharpening older chains. i seem to remember that oregon used to recommend using a 3/16" file after the chain has been sharpened a few times. it's either that or lower the gullets. any ideas?
You are talking about 4, different parts of the chain, and they each have to be addressed respectively.
The diameter of the file, carbide cutter, grinding wheel edge, etc. shapes the cutter and sharpens the top and side edges.
Clearing out the gullet only needs to be done if it is an issue: if you are having trouble clearing chips, or if that portion of the side plate is sticking out out more than the upper part of the side plate (where the cutting is done).
Then you do the depth gauges (as you described ).
Then I would look at the bumper tie straps and make sure that they are not higher than the depth gauges.
Philbert
The diameter of the file, carbide cutter, grinding wheel edge, etc. shapes the cutter and sharpens the top and side edges.
Clearing out the gullet only needs to be done if it is an issue: if you are having trouble clearing chips, or if that portion of the side plate is sticking out out more than the upper part of the side plate (where the cutting is done).
Then you do the depth gauges (as you described ).
Then I would look at the bumper tie straps and make sure that they are not higher than the depth gauges.
Philbert
Philbert-
the reason i lowered the gullet was because it had a negative hook. the carbide burr was sitting too high. one weakness of the timberland tool is that it does not correctly measure gullet depth like any filing guide. it depends on the existing gullet to position the cutter height. i probably could have used a 3/16" carbide burr and achieved the same result but i don't have one. i only use three sizes of chain, 3/8" lo-pro, 3/8" and .404. i decided to order a couple of 3/16" burrs anyway. this afternoon (mountain time zone, usa) i lowered the depth gauges using BobL's technique that he demos in his youtube video. i set them to circa 6 degrees using a non-digital angle finder. the chain cut's well now, self feeds, throws big chips, in ponderosa pine and balsam poplar. i'll post a picture of the finished product as soon as i can run the raw files thru gimp or photoshop. i'm still kind of scratching my head about the lies my depth gauge tool told me. i won't trust those things any more. interesting that when i put the vernier callipers on the finished chain i measured about -.7mm between tooth and depth gauge. the bumper tie straps are just now contacting my grinding wheel. the chain is a piece of crap oregon low kickback but it came on a 038 magnum that i bought. i could make a new chain from my roll but consider this an opportunity to learn some of the finer points of chain sharpening.
Do you mean the Stihl USG Universal Chain Sharpener
or one of these Stihl raker setting tool
?
Before commenting any further I need to know your gullet width.
The gullet is measured from the front of the raker to the very back of the gullet.
BTW note how the Stihl raker setting tool comes in different sizes. Some folks that know buy a set of the 0.025", 0.030" and 0.035" and use the deeper ones with more worn cutters. Trouble is that 0.035" is still too high for cutters once they are past about half way worn.
Oregon have 0.025, 0.030, 0.040 , 0.050, 0.060 and 0.070 depth gauges setting tools (see Bailey's - Files & Accessories > Depth Gauge Tools > Oregon Raker Gauges) but the increment between the sizes of gauges of 0.010" may be a tad too much for optimising raker angles.
Lets say your gullet is at 0.30, using the 0.030 raker gives a raker angle of 5.7º, a touch wussy but otherwise OK but maybe you want to be cutting a bit more aggressively so you go to the 0.04" gauge, but this gives an angle of 7.6º which may be too much. Using the Stihl gauge of 0.035" produces and angle 6.7º which is maybe more like what you want.
So if you don't wish to mess with digital angle finders or callipers to set the rakers etc then get your self a set of the orgeon gauges up to the 0.050" and toss in a Stihl 0.035" gauge since oregon don't have one.
BobL-
I watched your youtube vid and read thru the links you provided. I acquired an angle finder, the kind that doesn't need batteries. the actual metal cutting was done on an oregon grinder. attached is a photo of the semi-chisel, low kickback chain that, though razor sharp, depth gauges set with the stihl tool, cut miserably. it now buzzes thru conifer and deciduous wood. the angle finder measured approximately 6 degrees. callipers measured about -.7mm on the depth gauges. i see now that i should have blown off the chain. it just cut two cookies.
View attachment 299760
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