New Gear - some questions

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ironray

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Hi all.

I bought climbing gear from Bailey's.

I have a couple of questions.

I got up about 8'. That's as far as I wanted to go using a croll and a hand ascender with foot loop. I got up there and had a heck of a time attaching the descender/relieving the tension off the hand ascender. How does one do it? Do you ascend with the rope attached to the descender? I didn't.

I have a pantin. Would using that help?

I have a Bee line prusik. How do you keep that going up with you as you climb using above equipment? I tested that just at ground level. Once it tightens you need one hand to move it along as you go up.

Any videos or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Ray
 
Do you know how to climb doubled rope friction hitch style? It's very difficult to teach yourself single rope technique (assuming that's what you were trying with the Croll and handled ascender), there's a dozen different ways to totally screw yourself up.

Take a look at Jepson's Tree Climbers Companion and Peter Jenkin's (google Tree Climbing International) Tree Climbing Basics dvd, good foundation materials to be looked at before getting into a tree on rope.
-moss
 
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Hi all.

I bought climbing gear from Bailey's.

I have a couple of questions.

I got up about 8'. That's as far as I wanted to go using a croll and a hand ascender with foot loop. I got up there and had a heck of a time attaching the descender/relieving the tension off the hand ascender. How does one do it? Do you ascend with the rope attached to the descender? I didn't.

I have a pantin. Would using that help?

I have a Bee line prusik. How do you keep that going up with you as you climb using above equipment? I tested that just at ground level. Once it tightens you need one hand to move it along as you go up.

Any videos or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Ray

Before anyone gives you specific technical advice can you give a little background on what you do know about rope and harness tree climbing technique?
Thanks,
-moss
 
Before anyone gives you specific technical advice can you give a little background on what you do know about rope and harness tree climbing technique?
Thanks,
-moss

I am a beginner. All I want to do at this point is climb up a rope and come down.
 
Do you know how to climb doubled rope friction hitch style? It's very difficult to teach yourself single rope technique (assuming that's what you were trying with the Croll and handled ascender), there's a dozen different ways to totally screw yourself up.

Take a look at Jepson's Tree Climbers Companion and Peter Jenkin's (google Tree Climbing International) Tree Climbing Basics dvd, good foundation materials to be looked at before getting into a tree on rope.
-moss

I have Jepson's book and have read it. I was trying to put some of what I read into practice. I know better than to get more than 8' off the ground. And, yes I was doing it single rope.

I did climb using the double rope. The prusik kept locking on the double rope and I had a heck of a time coming down. Is this prusik too short for climbing (30")? Even foot locking on the way down didn't seem to release the prusik.

The problem seems to be getting down using either technique. I have searched all through the web and could only find one site that deals with transition from ascending to descending using the frog method. It shows using a mechanical descender not an "8".
 
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Thanks for the background info, makes it easier find the best answers.

Prusik grabs really well but tends to lock on the rope after you load it. Try a Blake's Hitch for doubled rope climbing, it's super smooth to release. Absolutely make sure you have one hand on the tail of the rope when you (gently) pull down the hitch to descend, otherwise you'll have a very fast ride to the ground ending in pain. Keep your descent speed moderate, going too fast will melt the rope.
-moss
 
Switchover to rappel on a Tree Frog is simple to do but difficult to explain.

Mileage varies per system, I don't know exactly how yours is configured.

Here are the basic concepts, practice a few times a couple of feet off the ground. While you're doing a switchover put a lanyard on the tree as a backup. Once you're skilled at performing a switchover you can do without the lanyard backup, for instance if you're in a hang position where you can't reach the tree.

Unload the lower ascender (Croll) in other words transfer your load to the upper ascender. If you have a strap/harness or bungee holding up the Croll take it off the Croll before you try to unload it. You can't switch over to rappel if you don't unload the Croll.

Stand on the footloop from the upper ascender to unload the Croll.

Thumb the cam on the Croll and pull a bight of your climbing rope up through the Croll. Install your F8 on the slack rope between the Croll and the upper ascender and attach the F8 to your harness.

Lock off your F8.

Verify that you've correctly installed your F8 and locked it off.

Take the rope out of the Croll, you're now on your upper ascender and your F8.

Take your foot out of the footloop on the upper ascender. Footlock the tail of your rope or use your Panin.

Stand up on the tail of your rope and take the upper ascender off the rope.

Sit back down, you're on your F8, unlock the F8 and rappel.
-moss
 
Switchover to rappel on a Tree Frog is simple to do but difficult to explain.

Mileage varies per system, I don't know exactly how yours is configured.

Here are the basic concepts, practice a few times a couple of feet off the ground. While you're doing a switchover put a lanyard on the tree as a backup. Once you're skilled at performing a switchover you can do without the lanyard backup, for instance if you're in a hang position where you can't reach the tree.

Unload the lower ascender (Croll) in other words transfer your load to the upper ascender. If you have a strap/harness or bungee holding up the Croll take it off the Croll before you try to unload it. You can't switch over to rappel if you don't unload the Croll.

Stand on the footloop from the upper ascender to unload the Croll.

Thumb the cam on the Croll and pull a bight of your climbing rope up through the Croll. Install your F8 on the slack rope between the Croll and the upper ascender and attach the F8 to your harness.

Lock off your F8.

Verify that you've correctly installed your F8 and locked it off.

Take the rope out of the Croll, you're now on your upper ascender and your F8.

Take your foot out of the footloop on the upper ascender. Footlock the tail of your rope or use your Panin.

Stand up on the tail of your rope and take the upper ascender off the rope.

Sit back down, you're on your F8, unlock the F8 and rappel.
-moss

Thanks for the responses. I am going to print that out and try it hanging about five feet up.

I thought about the Blake's hitch or the Klemheist. Jepson's book does make any comment about which is better for the double rope.

The prusik I have is very short. In all of the diagrams in Jepson's book he shows the friction hitch above the climber's head. Is that the way it's supposed to be? The one I have (that came with the kit) will barely reach eye level. (I bought the Petzl Rope Climbing Kit https://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail_kit.asp?item=27915&catID=1393). I have to say that it's not complete. I have had to buy three caribiners just to hook everything up. Not sure if I am ever going to use the Pantin since using the croll and foot loop combo is pretty easy climbing. (Just gotta be able to get down)

I found a similar post to mine in the Canopy Chatter Forum (Tree Frog Ascent and descent) where you said, "I've seen several experienced climbers go up high on a new SRT system and then shout down, "How the hell do you switch this thing over?" (always good for a laugh)" Which is exactly how I felt 12' off the ground the other day. :monkey::monkey:

I did manage to use a variant of your process to get down but it was not easy.

It seems this subject is not well addressed and if you don't know who to ask you may never find out and spend a day or two in a tree.

Thanks again. I will let you know how it works out. Raining today so the gear is stowed.
 
The prusik I have is very short. In all of the diagrams in Jepson's book he shows the friction hitch above the climber's head. Is that the way it's supposed to be? The one I have (that came with the kit) will barely reach eye level. (I bought the Petzl Rope Climbing Kit https://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail_kit.asp?item=27915&catID=1393). I have to say that it's not complete. I have had to buy three caribiners just to hook everything up.

I lent my Jepson's out so I can't tell you which page to look at but check out setting up a Blake's without using a split tail as illustrated in Jepson's, all you need is one carabiner for the system. You're overthinking it and getting way too complicated without understanding fundamental concepts. Start simple and build your system up gradually.
-moss
 
Check out the SRT illustration on page 65....shameless self-promotion :)

Hitches don't work very well for descending on SRT. The physics are very complex. A climber who posts on a couple of the another pro tree climbing forum and a rec climbing forum is working through a two-hitch setup that has promise. Until this gets perfected you'll find that using a mechanical device for descent would be the best. Anything from the Unicender to a Munter hitch will work...some better than others.

Welcome to tree climbing!
 
I just looked at the Bailey's link to the "Rope Climbing Kit", it's a little incomplete, missing some carabiners and a footloop from the upper ascender.

It doesn't seem like a good point to start from though if you're a beginner climber teaching yourself.

I might have misunderstood the question about the prusik, for some reason I thought you were talking about DdRT hitch climbing, were you talking about footlocking a doubled rope? If so, that's a whole 'nother subject. When you're footlocking doubled rope you have to keep moving, if you sit back and rest the prusik will seize up, you have to lock with your feet, unload the prusik, loosen it and then continue climbing. Footlocking has a steep learning curve, takes some time to figure it out, especially if you don't have someone who knows what they're doing coaching you.
-moss
 
I just looked at the Bailey's link to the "Rope Climbing Kit", it's a little incomplete, missing some carabiners and a footloop from the upper ascender.

It doesn't seem like a good point to start from though if you're a beginner climber teaching yourself.

I might have misunderstood the question about the prusik, for some reason I thought you were talking about DdRT hitch climbing, were you talking about footlocking a doubled rope? If so, that's a whole 'nother subject. When you're footlocking doubled rope you have to keep moving, if you sit back and rest the prusik will seize up, you have to lock with your feet, unload the prusik, loosen it and then continue climbing. Footlocking has a steep learning curve, takes some time to figure it out, especially if you don't have someone who knows what they're doing coaching you.
-moss

Thanks, Moss for the reply.

After some rumination I have come to the conclusion that I may have overpurchased in getting into climbing.

I have watched many videos (some of yours included) and thought the purchase of that kit would save me some steps. It seems, like anything else, there is a progression one must go through to get to a certain point.

The kit did come with a foot loop. I have used it. In fact, using the croll and the hand ascender/foot loop makes it pretty darn easy to climb. I got up about ten feet in seconds. It was at that point when I wanted to switch from ascent to descent that the "How the hell do you get down" moment occurred.

I like the notion of the Munter's hitch. I haven't tried it yet. As I said before, I used a variant (at least as far as I can remember) of your post to get down.

I have since made some Prusik loops and have tested their strength by jumping on them with my full body weight. I have always had fun with knots having spent a lot of time on a ship as a youngster. Learning to splice eyes, make monkey fists, etc. has always been a part of my life.

Tree climbing, so far, has been a mixed result. I almost gave up and packed the stuff up to send back to Bailey's. But the drive to get up into the trees is keeping me willing to try some more.

I am out of work so I have no money to pay for lessons or training. I thought about hooking up with a tree guy around here and work for lessons but it hasn't gone much further than thinking.

The weather here in CT is awful. The gear is packed and I am hoping to try again tomorrow. I will let you know the results.

It seems the package that Bailey's is incomplete but now I get the feeling that it was meant to be a sort of upgrade package to someone who has been using DRT to get them into SRT. Oh, well. Live and learn.
 
Check out the SRT illustration on page 65....shameless self-promotion :)

Hitches don't work very well for descending on SRT. The physics are very complex. A climber who posts on a couple of the another pro tree climbing forum and a rec climbing forum is working through a two-hitch setup that has promise. Until this gets perfected you'll find that using a mechanical device for descent would be the best. Anything from the Unicender to a Munter hitch will work...some better than others.

Welcome to tree climbing!

Thanks, Tom.

I looked at the Munter hitch (in your book) :hmm3grin2orange:and that seems like it might be easier to switch to for descent than using an R8.

I actually did see the video on the double hitch that guy was developing but it's way beyond my scope right now.
 
Ya, forget about descending SRT on a hitch, it's experimental, at its best still doesn't work well compared to mechanical descenders and an F8 is so much easier, safer etc.

The mechanical ascenders etc. will come in handy. You have a rope and harness, take a shot at DdRT Blake's Hitch climbing, you can use your handled ascender to help with your DdRT climbing as this climber is doing:
4698617256_99081cf367_b.jpg


Note: he's climbing on a split tail, you can simply use the tail of your rope to tie the Blake's see Jepson's.
-moss
 
So, using that DdRT you are basically using the rope over a branch as a pulley, right? How much damage does the rope do to the branch and vise-versa?

Splitting and stacking wood today. Tomorrow I will set up another time and try some of this stuff at very low heights.
 
So, using that DdRT you are basically using the rope over a branch as a pulley, right? How much damage does the rope do to the branch and vise-versa?

Splitting and stacking wood today. Tomorrow I will set up another time and try some of this stuff at very low heights.

Thin-barked trees you do more damage: beech etc., oak less so. If you climb any tree several times on the same limbs you'll start to do damage. I use a protective sleeve, you can get leather or conduit sleeves. New Tribe has the conduit sleeves (if you pick up one of these get the 3/4" by 30" size),
Jeff Newman/Tree Trek makes a nice leather sleeve.

Sleeves are very easy to install and take out from the ground. Many arborist climbers use a "ring-ring" saver or some variation (Rope Guide etc.), trickier to install from the ground and potentially even more of a problem to take out from the ground.

The Tree Trek "Rogue" sleeve on a fat limb:
4616177650_1b826b3dfc_b.jpg


-moss
 
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Doing a switchover from ascent to descent is NOT something to learn off the ground. The procedure can be learned by yourself. There are lots of helpful videos and other websites to learn from.

If you'd like to find your way to the other websites send me or Moss an email.
 
Ironray,

You didn't mention if you have a positioning lanyard on your saddle. If so you can park yourself in a comfortable crotch, lanyard in and make the transition to decent. Personally i use a black diamond ATC instead of a fig 8 it holds better and doesn't hockle you rope. I leave the handled upper ascender in place above the atc as a backup in case I bump my control hand, and just hold the cam open.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

Okay,

Got the climbing rope stuck in a tree. I had the rope in a tree but did not like where it was. Wanted to put it in another tree. I went to pull it out but did not realize there was a knot in the tail so it got stuck. Had to put up a ladder and use my long handled pruner to pull the tail down.:monkey::monkey:

Finally got the rope into another tree. Cleared the mountain Laurel around the base and climbed up using the the DdRT method. I used the hand ascender with foot loop and a Blake's hitch. Not easy but not hard either. Practices at about five feet getting down several times and then went up about 15'. Got down very nicely using the Blake.

The saddle is not comfortable at all. Or, I am setting it up wrong. It squeezed my ribs and pinches the top of my thighs. I went up several time and came down when the saddle became too uncomfortable.

Tried the DRT with a Klemheist and a Prusik with loops I made from some 7mm cord bought at EMS. Both locked on so tight that I could barely pull it up before the foot lock slipped through. Foot locking is something that needs to be practiced. Tried different lengths of loops. Still too hard. Should I use a larger diameter cord (10mm?) for loops?

Right now the worst part of the deal seems to be the saddle. Not sure I could spend a whole lot of time in that thing.

It's still a little nerve wracking being just 15' in the air. In time, though I am sure I will get comfortable with it. I was more nervous on the ladder at 15' then I was on the rope.
 
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What harness? It sounds like it might be a size too big.

Your approach to tree climbing is one that is likely to lead to an accident. the place to learn is NOT off the ground by yourself. Low and slow means learning on the ground first.

How else are you learning?

The questions that you're asking can't be answered simply. The answers are complex and require a lot of time to write. The answers have already been written and are in the archives of this website and others. Take time to read and learn before you go off the ground.

Are you reading other forums too? If not, let me know, I'll send you links.
 
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