New nomenclature for Doubled rope climbing technique.

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1:1 backed-up, dual-handled ascenders on the primary climbing line, 2:1 friction hitch on the other. You fashion the hitch when you get up there, though.
It's for positioning, and for working the other stem, and back and forth between them as you'll need to do maybe a few times.

You have now rigged a double rope system, (DRT) where one of the ropes you're climbing 1:1 (1:1 DbdRT) and you intend to incorporate a hitch into the second climb line (2:1 DbdRT). What you will have is a DRT, DdRT, DbRT setup, all at the same time.

And you rock, Bob. It's two-fer Tuesday at your favorite radio station and they're dishin out some Clapton and some Skynyrd and all kinda good music to see you through the next 2-1/2 hours, you got in a groove. You didn't forget anything and you didn't drop anything critical. You just had a fabulous afternoon, and found it novel that you took your 2:1 hitch, anchored one end to the tree at the tie-in point and worked SRT off of it for awhile (DRT, 1:1 DbdRT, SRT) and at the end of the climb, you de-anchor your SRT line after attaching 1:1 midline, disconnect ascenders from the 1:1 ascendered line, abseil out on the single doubled line (1:1 DbdRT)

You mix it up. I would LOVE to have a day like Bob just had. ;)
 
Great illustration Tree! Really great, when I get back tonight I’m definitely going to read through it again, in the mean time I have to go and wreck a big dead ash tree, oh joy :censored: . Any way I did manage to get PM’s off to Sean Larkin and Tom Dunlap, hopefully they will take an interest. If anyone out there can think of anyone else who might take an interest drop them a line.

Moss your input has been really valuable here, good work.

Bob, your questions and insights have helped to keep up momentum of this thread, thanks.

OK, off to work I go, hi ho.
 
Tree Machine, great posts and pictures, thanks for sharing!!

No disrespect to the current system while it is descriptive, it could just be much more user friendly.

Sure, experienced climbers don't have any problem communicating with it. But for new people, it is a bit of an obstacle. And even experienced people will have to go back and clarify at times in these forums.

I like MDRT,SDRT, and SSRT. I like it because it is both indentifying and descriptive of the climbing technique in question.

The set of terms MDRT, SDRT, and SRT is equally clear in idenifying each technique , but is a little less descriptive to someone learning climbing.

I think the biggest confusion is Db and Dd. It is confusing in too many ways to even list. Just look at the two next to each other. They look almost the same.

In the tree climbing discipline you use different color rope to make your lines easier to use. Why not demand the same of nomenclature?

Why tangle your words like flaking two same colored throwlines in the same bag?
 
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Thanks for the email Corey!

About 10-12 years ago on the original ISA discussion forum there was talk about various rope climbing systems. After much thrashing and talking I suggested the acronym DdRT vrs. DRT to stay in line with rope access nomenclature. This works well since SRT is very clear to anyone in rope access. This difference has been accepted in a lot of literature...check out the various ISA dictionaries, articles and TCIA articles. Read through the Sherrill catalog too.

If arbos start to change the meaning of the acronyms that are accpeted we risk marginalizing our place in rope access. Why do that?

Ever since that original discussion took place I have had to explain the subtle differences between DdRT and DRT. Use whatever term you feel comfortable with though. In the years since that discussion the climbing systems for arbos have gotten more complex and hybrid. Having a standard language sure would be nice but who is going to be appointed the arbiter of the acronyms? It seems that ISA is in that position and the terms have been incorporated into their pubs.

Shigo would say...Define your terms.

This is a good way to think about all of this, from Jim Clark's post above:

...there is confusion. DRT has conventionally been Double (or dual) Rope Technique, using two ropes. SRT has never been Static Rope Technique, only Single Rope Technique, conventional throughout all aerial disciplines.

In arbo work we call DRT double crotching. To me, it gets way too confusing to split it any further into double crotching using SRT or DdRT. I just use the words to explain it.

Enjoy the discussion!
 
Oh TM, you're too kind (said as I wipe the tears from my keyboard) :cry: . All that BS work has just now paid off. If only your words could repair the over-strained tendons in my pull-fingers from running Weaver's new throw weights through the Big Shot ringer recently. (In case nobody's in the know yet, Weaver's about to release new throw weights modeled after Andrew Harrison's awesome "Rocket.")

As for the DdRT nomenclature, I'm for simpler is better and to me Tom Dunlap was on the mark a few years ago when we discussed the matter. SRT and DRT have been around a long time in other rope access disciplines. DRT is used in some very old writings describing use of two different ropes. Utilizing DdRT to differentiate our use of one rope doubled may be complicated to someone new to rope access but when introduced to climbers knowledgeable of SRT and DRT, they get it... quickly. Not to say that I'm closed on the issue, but unless there's a significant problem (other than someone simply "not liking" the acronym) I prefer to stick with DdRT. Hey, look, this discussion alone has probably cleared it up for a lot of folks. You guys keep up the good discussion, I'm going climbing!!

...and be safe. T (get it?)
 
DRT and DdRT are conceptually very different techniques yet the current nomenclature implies they are variations of the same. Tom, I disagree the difference is subtle. As an arbo you get the rope in the tree in the same manner, so I see why you see them as being similar. But DdRT then becomes a friction creating technique. A friction management device may then be used on the tree. Techniques vary further from there.

I think people are so used to the current nomenclature that you don't see how confusing it is at first. Of course after a while you learn it. It's like when you move into a new house or workplace. For the first few months you notice all the little problems. But if you don't fix them, after a couple years you stop noticing them and they never do get fixed.

I definitey see the reason to keep SRT unchanged.

I think perhaps it is just DdRT that needs to be changed so that it is completely defferent from DRT. I think MRT would work or even FRT (friction). I like that one.

I'm just saying that everyone gets confused when first exposed to the terms. And the fact that DbRT has crept in is further evidence of this. I think a good change in nomenclature will clear up confusion for future climbers. It's not only because I don't like it.

Who is the arbiter? Frequently it is the biggest megaphone. But first you should decide it is worthwhile.
 
I think perhaps it is just DdRT that needs to be changed so that it is completely defferent from DRT. I think MRT would work or even FRT (friction). I like that one.

More good insight. DdRT is so established, it's tough to change the defacto standard. DbRT is pretty useless and a main cause of confusion. FRT is interesting except when you take the "D" out you're removing an important descriptive part of the acronym. A climbing friend does SRT ascending with friction hitches so he could be said to be using FRT. Always a gotcha.

Bearing in mind everything that's been said how about the following. This is not trying to be revolutionary but is trying to go with the flow of the current usage and evolution of the terms in tree climbing. Assumes that double rope technique as interestingly described and diagramed by TM is not often described with an acronym in technical tree climbing, so I'm not going to worry about that:

DRT = generic or family name for doubled rope technique used in technical tree climbing, not specific. Can be used as shorthand for either of the DRT techniques depending on context.

Varieties of DRT:
DdRT = doubled rope technique, 2:1 closed system
DRT footlock = doubled rope technique, 1:1 open system, no need to have it all encapsulated in an acronym. Most work climbers just say, "I'm going to footlock up to the TIP", or if they want to get technical say "I'm doing secured footlock".

SRT = we're there already

Something else to consider is that secured footlock as we know it is starting to go away. It seems like nearly every climber who experiences accessing the tree SRT starts to think that DRT footlock is too much abuse for what you get except for maybe a short climb to a lower branch. In that case the quick setup makes it more worthwhile. You all know I'm a rec climber so these are just my outside observations of working climbers.
-moss
 
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