Opinions on fuel

[heyduke]

I read another post from a member that stated the 100ll which is what is in question is basically half the lead of the old 100 green gas. I would like to see that in ppm or percentage. How much it actually equates to. The original question was of the guys running it,were there any issues with the equipment over time due to the lead, something we can't see. Maybe before this thread dies we can answer those questions.

after five pages i can't remember if this has come up but i thought about addressing it when i read the first post. yes, leaded fuel could damage your saw if it has a catalytic converter. lead wasn't removed from automotive fuel so much because of health issues but because catalytic converters became part of the pollution control equipment on almost all gasoline powered cars. interestingly one of the few exceptions was the early honda civic which had a stratified charge system that made the cat unnecessary. another was the dodge colt which used a small second intake valve and precombustion chamber. both of these cars could achieve 50mpg. i've never heard of leaded fuel damaging a saw without a cat. we all burned leaded fuel until the 1970's. lead was added to fuel originally so that blends could be made more cheaply without sacrificing octane (pinging.)

by "green" gas i think you mean pre "LL" av gas. it's been more than ten minutes since i read about that but you can find the numbers on google like i did. there are several types (and colors) of av gas.

 

[rwoods]

I read another post from a member that stated the 100ll which is what is in question is basically half the lead of the old 100 green gas. I would like to see that in ppm or percentage. How much it actually equates to. The original question was of the guys running it,were there any issues with the equipment over time due to the lead, something we can't see. Maybe before this thread dies we can answer those questions.

The silence may well be your answer. I have been hanging around AS for a few years and don't recall anyone asserting that long term use of avgas had any harmful effect on chainsaws. Maybe some posts on octane overkill. And tuning issues. Just search "avgas". You will get more threads than you will want to read. Ron

 

[Boomer 87]

Well I figured lead has lubricity qualities, I figured it has to be good for bearings if nothing else. Maybe if the guy who previously had my 056 used 100ll I wouldn't have wasted crank bearings!

 

[heyduke]

Well I figured lead has lubricity qualities, I figured it has to be good for bearings if nothing else. Maybe if the guy who previously had my 056 used 100ll I wouldn't have wasted crank bearings!

i may be wrong but i think the lubricating properties of tetraethyl lead are generally over rated. they always claimed it was necessary for lubrication of 4 stroke valve guides but i had many older cars that ran fine with normal wear to valves and guides after we switched to non-leaded fuel. i think these qualities were hyped by the companies like chevron who made billions by adding lead to gasoline.

though i agree that it was good to get that lead out of our environment, i always wanted someone to do research on the highly reactive gases that spew out of a cat. i suspect they are unhealthy for pedestrians, cyclists and, yes, chainsaw operators.

 

[HuskStihl]

As 100LL was never intended to be used in 2 strokes, I am confident you will not find a study on user/environmental impact of using 100LL in your saw.

In pediatrics
There is no safe level of lead exposure in children, with lasting decreases in cognition documented in children with blood levels as low as 5 micrograms per deciliter of lead in blood. At that level, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends evaluation and intervention. However, all elevated lead levels are a concern. There is no safe level.

For adults
Now scientists say the evidence is overwhelming that action needs to be taken to further reduce lead exposures in both the workplace and the general environment. “What’s driving concern over the need to reduce permissible levels of exposure in the workplace are . . . more subtle or chronic problems such as hypertension, and contributions to cognitive dysfunction

Granted, doctors and scientists may be employed by the ethanol industry, and the current recommendations that there is no safe amount of lead exposure may simply be a ruse to get you to run e10.
To @Boomer 87
100LL will have zero adverse effects on your saw. It will probably run great on 100LL. The exhaust will contain more lead than zero, which is what the doctor peeps think is the correct amount. My Super-Mike 288, Monkey-Logic 394, and WWS 385 are three of the bestest saws you'll ever run, and I don't find them worth 100LL. You may feel differently, which is cool. I would suggest to not run lead fuel out of a 2 stroke around young children

 

[Boomer 87]

The thought I had after all this is as follows: as a collector the saws I've acquired that were born when leaded fuel was the norm will get 100ll as I may start one every whipstich make a couple cuts then drain it out and run it dry. Seems to be the best fuel for that purpose. As a firewood cutter I have newer saws, ms 271, ms361,460 rancher,etc. Those were clearly made to be used with s@#t gas. So when I cut firewood I cut a substantial amount I will invest the money in the VP racing or the TRU-FUEL. in the cans. Seems like a pretty good compromise.

 

[heyduke]

Next they should try a saw powered by a small nuclear thermal decay source running a stirling engine.

chris don't make everything so complicated. all you need is a cordless extension cord.

 

[Gugi47]

E free on all my 2 cycles toys I have and 50-1 synthetic oil mix regardless what they recommend.
Never run in any problem. But that's me, you don't have to do what I do....LOL.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

E10

 

[Ted Jenkins]

This idea of high octane for chainsaw motors is absurd. For almost all chain saw motors 87 octane is perfect. I have been tuning 2 stroke motors for more than 40 years and have been hired by several corporations to tune their creations numerous times. My trophy collections does not lie. Chain saw motors for most part will not benefit from either high lead or high octane from their design. Bearings will not benefit from any exotic mixture either. In my younger years living on a Air Force base taught me much about Ave Gas. I will never forget back in the 60's my buddy working so hard to make his motorcycle fast and reliable only to find out that 130 Ave gas destroyed his motor in less than 30 minutes of use. Most oils are designed around unleaded fuel so why mess with success. If you go to the bother of redesigning an oil to mix with Av Gas then let us know how it works. I remember when we had numerous Packard 1710 motors that need high octane because they are super charged with constant rpm ranges. Those motors are worlds apart from a modern chainsaw motor. I have one saw that has cut at least five hundred cords of wood and still is going strong, however if it starts vibrating or something it will be fine because it carried its weight. Now for those who port their saws to increase its performance that is a little different set of issues. Depending on how extreme the mods go will create a need for possible higher octane needs. Many modified motors will not have significantly higher compression to justify using race gas. I used alcohol as my main tuning tool because it ran cooler than other fuels and the ratio could be changed in just a few minutes. Thanks

 

[rwoods]

May be just a sales pitch for their can fuel but Stihl says (emphasis added):

Guidelines for using E10 gasoline in STIHL power equipment:
If the proper precautions are taken, gasoline containing a 10% quantity of ethanol can safely be used in your STIHL products.

• Use a minimum of 89 octane gasoline and always use fresh fuel. Only buy enough gasoline that you can easily use up within a two-month period or use a specially formulated fuel mixture like STIHL MotoMix® Premixed Fuel. STIHL MotoMix® is a high-grade, high-octane, ethanol-free premixed fuel containing STIHL HP Ultra synthetic oil. It is a pure and stable fuel mixture that can be stored for up to two years in the original container and is ideal for machines that are used infrequently.
• For air-cooled, two-cycle engines, use a quality mix oil that meets the engine manufacturer's recommendations. All STIHL oils are designed to readily mix with gasoline containing 10% ethanol.
• Properly store your equipment. If your equipment is not going to be used for a couple of months, the remaining gasoline in the machine should be drained from the tank and disposed of properly. To ensure that any remaining ethanol is removed from your equipment, STIHL recommends adding a small amount of STIHL MotoMix® Premixed Fuel to the tank and running the engine for a few minutes to circulate the fuel through the carburetor.
• Equipment should be serviced regularly by your STIHL Dealer. Items such as fuel filters, fuel lines, carburetor diaphragms and spark plugs should be checked and replaced if necessary as part of a normal engine tune-up.

Ron

 

[heyduke]

This idea of high octane for chainsaw motors is absurd. For almost all chain saw motors 87 octane is perfect. I have been tuning 2 stroke motors for more than 40 years and have been hired by several corporations to tune their creations numerous times. My trophy collections does not lie. Chain saw motors for most part will not benefit from either high lead or high octane from their design. Bearings will not benefit from any exotic mixture either. In my younger years living on a Air Force base taught me much about Ave Gas. I will never forget back in the 60's my buddy working so hard to make his motorcycle fast and reliable only to find out that 130 Ave gas destroyed his motor in less than 30 minutes of use. Most oils are designed around unleaded fuel so why mess with success. If you go to the bother of redesigning an oil to mix with Av Gas then let us know how it works. I remember when we had numerous Packard 1710 motors that need high octane because they are super charged with constant rpm ranges. Those motors are worlds apart from a modern chainsaw motor. I have one saw that has cut at least five hundred cords of wood and still is going strong, however if it starts vibrating or something it will be fine because it carried its weight. Now for those who port their saws to increase its performance that is a little different set of issues. Depending on how extreme the mods go will create a need for possible higher octane needs. Many modified motors will not have significantly higher compression to justify using race gas. I used alcohol as my main tuning tool because it ran cooler than other fuels and the ratio could be changed in just a few minutes. Thanks

using 100 octane fuel in a chainsaw shouldn't hurt it. i suspect 130 octane would be fine too if it was available. your friend's scooter probably succumbed to his wrench or other abuse. true, you can't take advantage of the higher octane because you can't adjust ignition timing and it is difficult to increase compression. but a high octane won't cause it too run poorly. the reason guys use av gas is to avoid ethanol and that's valid. the reason manufacturers specify 87 or higher octane is because that's what they build the ignition modules for. if you tried, for example, to use camp stove fuel, once called white gas, you would definitely risk damage from detonation because the flash point is too low. if you could modify the ignition module so you could move it a few degrees counter-clockwise, you could probably use low-octane white gas without damaging the piston but you would have less power.

 

[Boomer 87]

I read all that when I bought my ms 271, I will say that when a saw is brought in to my local dealer for repair under warranty,the first question they ask is , what kind of fuel do you run, you better say canned gas bc if you say pump gas and the repair is fuel related, no warranty, thats on you buddy!

 

[astnmacgto]

May be just a sales pitch for their can fuel but Stihl says (emphasis added):

Guidelines for using E10 gasoline in STIHL power equipment:
If the proper precautions are taken, gasoline containing a 10% quantity of ethanol can safely be used in your STIHL products.

• Use a minimum of 89 octane gasoline and always use fresh fuel. Only buy enough gasoline that you can easily use up within a two-month period or use a specially formulated fuel mixture like STIHL MotoMix® Premixed Fuel. STIHL MotoMix® is a high-grade, high-octane, ethanol-free premixed fuel containing STIHL HP Ultra synthetic oil. It is a pure and stable fuel mixture that can be stored for up to two years in the original container and is ideal for machines that are used infrequently.
• For air-cooled, two-cycle engines, use a quality mix oil that meets the engine manufacturer's recommendations. All STIHL oils are designed to readily mix with gasoline containing 10% ethanol.
• Properly store your equipment. If your equipment is not going to be used for a couple of months, the remaining gasoline in the machine should be drained from the tank and disposed of properly. To ensure that any remaining ethanol is removed from your equipment, STIHL recommends adding a small amount of STIHL MotoMix® Premixed Fuel to the tank and running the engine for a few minutes to circulate the fuel through the carburetor.
• Equipment should be serviced regularly by your STIHL Dealer. Items such as fuel filters, fuel lines, carburetor diaphragms and spark plugs should be checked and replaced if necessary as part of a normal engine tune-up.

Ron

I guess stihl probably does know what they are talking about, I mean, they did build the saw........

 

[heyduke]

I read all that when I bought my ms 271, I will say that when a saw is brought in to my local dealer for repair under warranty,the first question they ask is , what kind of fuel do you run, you better say canned gas bc if you say pump gas and the repair is fuel related, no warranty, thats on you buddy!

most of the saws i repair are stihls and many were under warranty. my experience has been that a stihl warranty is very good.. for wiping your bum.

 

[HuskStihl]

It's pretty easy to adjust chainsaw ignition timing and compression. My 288 blows 23o psi and runs pump gas no problem. High octane may mess with the tune, but it shouldn't hurt anything. If you feel like putting high tech stuff into a low tech motor, that's totally cool.

 

[Boomer 87]

The reason I use 100ll it has nothing to do with the octane rating I could care less about that, the reason I use it is its always consistant pump gas isn't in fact it never is.I've seen first hand brand new vehicles with summer blend fuel that sat on the lot until winter and wouldn't even start. Until they were brought in the shop and warmed up and would fire and run. These are brand new vehicles. TSB confirmed the issue was fuel. That's enough proof for me....... drops mic

 

[heyduke]

The reason I use 100ll it has nothing to do with the octane rating I could care less about that, the reason I use it is its always consistant pump gas isn't in fact it never is.I've seen first hand brand new vehicles with summer blend fuel that sat on the lot until winter and wouldn't even start. Until they were brought in the shop and warmed up and would fire and run. These are brand new vehicles. TSB confirmed the issue was fuel. That's enough proof for me....... drops mic

I know most folks don't keep track of their mileage but i do. it varies with each tank from 4 to 5 miles per gallon. i think it depends on the percentage of ethanol. used to be if i used premium i got better mileage because the knock detector adjusted the ignition timing for higher octane. now the mileage is the same or worse. most states test gas pumps for accuracy but i've never heard of testing for quality. most stations sell three grades of gasoline but have only two storage tanks. figure it out. you don't know what you're getting when you buy fuel and there doesn't seem to be any regulatory relief on the horizon.

It's pretty easy to adjust chainsaw ignition timing and compression. My 288 blows 23o psi and runs pump gas no problem. High octane may mess with the tune, but it shouldn't hurt anything. If you feel like putting high tech stuff into a low tech motor, that's totally cool.

i wouldn't say its easy to adjust compression. you can remove the base gasket to tighten the squish band but that's a tiny percntage of the combustion chamber volume. as far as i know you have to do some machine work to get beyond that and results are not predictable. if there's an easy way to significantly change ignition timing on a 288 without removing the flywheel key, please enlighten us.

 

[HuskStihl]

I know most folks don't keep track of their mileage but i do. it varies with each tank from 4 to 5 miles per gallon. i think it depends on the percentage of ethanol. used to be if i used premium i got better mileage because the knock detector adjusted the ignition timing for higher octane. now the mileage is the same or worse. most states test gas pumps for accuracy but i've never heard of testing for quality. most stations sell three grades of gasoline but have only two storage tanks. figure it out. you don't know what you're getting when you buy fuel and there doesn't seem to be any regulatory relief on the horizon.



i wouldn't say its easy to adjust compression. you can remove the base gasket to tighten the squish band but that's a tiny percntage of the combustion chamber volume. as far as i know you have to do some machine work to get beyond that and results are not predictable. if there's an easy way to significantly change ignition timing on a 288 without removing the flywheel key, please enlighten us.

I don't find shaving a flywheel key to change timing to be difficult. Especially on big huskies. One mm of ccw rotation of the flywheel advances the timing just about one degree. Most tapered fit ones don't even need the key present to stay put (not that I test that).
I could alter my 385's compression from 150 to 175 with a simple gasket delete. U'r totally correct about big compression change. I don't own a lathe, but mailed my 385 jug to TL and it came back a week later with a machined base and a cut squish band. Not super simple, but not exactly hard either

 

[heyduke]

I don't find shaving a flywheel key to change timing to be difficult. Especially on big huskies. One mm of ccw rotation of the flywheel advances the timing just about one degree. Most tapered fit ones don't even need the key present to stay put (not that I test that).
I could alter my 385's compression from 150 to 175 with a simple gasket delete. U'r totally correct about big compression change. I don't own a lathe, but mailed my 385 jug to TL and it came back a week later with a machined base and a cut squish band. Not super simple, but not exactly hard either

i suppose it isn't too difficult, however, my saws work for a living and i like to keep them stock and they don't have any stickers. it's better, i suppose to "shave" a key than to delete it entirely like when its cast into the flywheel. to test the stability of your timing, rev the 288 to 10k and operate the chain brake. i've seen keys sheer with a tight flywhel nut. i do delete the base gasket sometimes, especially if i am installing an asian top end but mostly, i don't worry about it. i just want the thing to start every time i pull on the rope. i devote a lot more attention to my chains.