Problems with Stihl Ultra Oil

[subhunter]

I do not have a dog in this fight, but i just noticed on the stihl web site that the HP ultra says"This oil is biodegradable, degrading by 80% in 21 days".
Does that mean that 80% oil is gone in 21 days or what? That has me a bit confused.otstir:

 

[NWCanuk]

I do not have a dog in this fight, but i just noticed on the stihl web site that the HP ultra says"This oil is biodegradable, degrading by 80% in 21 days".
Does that mean that 80% oil is gone in 21 days or what? That has me a bit confused.otstir:

I am thinking if asked they would reply. Bio degradable when exposed to air as in either after combustion has occurred or if you were to pour it out on the ground. Either way properly mixed and stored in an air tight container you would think that it would be stable. Even Stihl recommends only mixing what you can use is one session (yeah right). And also disposing of any mix that has been around longer then 3 months. I think they are just covering their …

 

[rwbinbc]

I've lost a 192t and a 260pro in the last month. The 192t had a bad intake boot, Wouldn't idle but we ran it anyways ran lean and scored it up. Didn't know about the boot untill I tore it apart, I think the seals are bad to. The 260pro IDK?, The only thing I can think of is running it to much. It would run out of gas and be cutting again within 2-3 minutes. It was running for two months, 6 days a week at least 6 hours a day. Had a 3/8" bar so that probly didn't help out. I use only stihl oil and plan on mixing a little more from now on. 40 or 45:1. Wasn't bad gas as it didn't touch the 441.

I put the 192 back together and it willn't idle now. Runs good just not idling. replacing the seals and reassemabling it again tomorrow. Hope all goes well.

 

[indiansprings]

Sure doesn't have anything to do with the Ultra mix.lol We'll burn between 5 and 10 gallons a week 4 1/2 months out of a year. All of it is mixed with Ultra and 89 octane pump gas. Not one issue in the last three years with Ultra, mix it 50:1. Imho, it sure creates less carbon than the dino oil based on what I've seen on the bench in my local shop. Why does Stihl offer to double the warranty on a new saw purchase when you also buy a six pack of Ultra at the time of the saw purchase?

I hate to say it, put the issue was the hand turning the screwdriver. Lean them out and you'll fry them every time, seen it happen to all too often in my lifetime. It's never the fault of the "tuner", it's either a pos piece of equipment, or in this case the oil. We use it on all our two stroke equipment of all brands, including a mantis tiller, four mix string trimmers, chain saws, leaf blowers, pole saws, and never an issue.
How do you know it caused them to run hotter, use a laser temp gun? If so how much hotter did the Ultra cause them to run?
Need to get you a tach and tune them inline with factory specs, a 70-80 dollar investment in a tach will save you a bundle in the long run. Some of these newer strato saws seem harder for me to tune by ear, it's just good insurance to use a tach or pay the dealer 10.00 to tune them.

 

[one.man.band]

as long as there was required amount of pre-mix.... i'm siding with those being the culprit being a bad jug of gasoline from the station.

we have had mucho amounts of rain and flooding around here, and i stay away from the stations with underground tanks in the flood prone areas.

much like everyone else i run: Coleman Fuel with a tablespoon or two of high quality vegetable oil. preferably Wesson or extra virgin olive oil.

 

[cjnspecial]

When I switched some old saws to ultra, they would smoke and run funny for a little while and eventually level off after burning off all the old crud. I'm thinking your saws were doing the same thing and possibly plugged the muffler screens up or knocked some carbon loose. Adjusting the carbs further exacerbated the problem.
Or you just got some bad gas. Best of luck on rebuilds.

 

[donjr5]

I guess the grooves on the piston and cylinder wall mesh so well the engine still runs!
The average consumer should never need to adjust modern 2-cycle carbs. If it doesn't run right, check for other problems (ignition, fuel quality, filter/fuel line condition or fuel quality).
Stihl Ultra is time proven, lab & field proven. Stihl does, however, recommend HP Super (dinosaur oil, orange bottle) for big, high revving saws, MS440 and up.

 

[one.man.band]

WGHStihl..... sorry about your saws.

without seeing the pistons and or plugs this would be almost impossible to diagnose.

for lack of better photos, this site shows common piston/ring failures in 2 strokes:

Reading Pistons

(sorry....i do not know how to post direct links).

my guess is still bad gas/water contamination for the initial cause. one of the photos does show this.

many other photos show lubrication issues.

could you tell us which photo your piston most resembles?

is this biodegradable ULTRA OIL made of castor beans base like 2 cycle oils of old? the old bean oil did have a short life span. i'm not implying anything for/against this brand of oil.....just curious.

 

[Andyshine77]

WGHStihl..... sorry about your saws.

without seeing the pistons and or plugs this would be almost impossible to diagnose.

for lack of better photos, this site shows common piston/ring failures in 2 strokes:

Reading Pistons

(sorry....i do not know how to post direct links).

my guess is still bad gas/water contamination for the initial cause. one of the photos does show this.

many other photos show lubrication issues.

could you tell us which photo your piston most resembles?

is this biodegradable ULTRA OIL made of castor beans base like 2 cycle oils of old? the old bean oil did have a short life span. i'm not implying anything for/against this brand of oil.....just curious.

Ultra is an ester syn oil, not castor racing oil. All true synthetic oils are biodegradable to a point, it comes down to the add packs. The oil will only breakdown when spread thin and exposed to air, in a closed container it will last years. Ultra will not cause any issues, end of story, move on.

 

[DSS]

I love oil threads.

 

[tdi-rick]

I love oil threads.

I try and resist, but like a moth to a flame.........

 

[one.man.band]

hmmm...

wrote that water contamination could be culprit. did not mention brand of oil being so.

sometimes..... a saw or any motor could start and run with water mixed into the gas. if it does start, it will not run well at all. with 2 stroke motors in particular...phase separation of water to fuel/premix occurs. when the the motor with water in the fuel runs at high rpm it is running with limited or no oil.....

ask anyone with a boat.

trying to help the guy who lost hundreds of dollars of equipment is all.

moving on.

 

[SPDRMNKY]

OP...all 3 running cruddy all of a sudden sounds like a bad batch of gas...try a different station...one that does lots of business

and because I haven't seen it posted in awhile...

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[GASoline71]

I just registered to post to this. Do not under any circumstances run gas with ethanol in it on the older Stihls. I did that once with my 026 and after 5 minutes (I was REALLY new to chainsaws back then) it quit from being so hot. You might get away with Eth in newer saws such as the 170 (I haven't tried it but I own one.) I'm no expert on the subject but it's always seemed like eth just destroys the older saws from what I have read. Also I've used both the silver and orange and the only real difference you'll see is an extended warranty on new gear when you buy it through your dealer and it's a little nicer on the plant life (like if you dump it on some grass on accident) other than that it runs just as good as the orange stuff. Both oils say they pack fuel stabilizers and they have to because my grandfather left a lot of his stuff laying around before I took over and believe it or not that stuff was still good. I personally recommend adding 1oz of Stabil to all of your 1gal batches as it'll help prevent eth problems and has some carb cleaning properties it's also relatively cheap compared to what eth can do to small engines. I seriously hope whoever wins the next election kicks the EPA in the head because so far all they've managed to do is ruin thousands of perfectly fine chainsaws, cars, etc. If you're wondering about using lower octane non eth gas go ahead we've been using 82 oct eth free from Caseys (They ship their gas from Illinois I think.) and our equipment has ran well. There is always the option of using the high oct stuff right from stihl for like.. 7.99 a bottle.

tl;dr version
Ethanol bad for older stihl saws
Silver/Orange oil more or less the same
Stabil is gewd stuff.
Lower oct without eth is better than higher oct with

HAHAHAHA!

I've been using E10 as long as it's been around. All my saws run like tops. Even the 40 year old saws. I also run 50:1 Ultra oil mix too. Works just fine in all my saws... even the ones that are 40 years old.

If you're havin' problems to the point you're continually smokin' saws... it's not the oil. It's either how you're mixin' it, or how well your saws are maintained.

Gary

 

[s219]

Yeah, I have been running ethanol gas in a 40 year old saw with no problems. I do drain the tank and run it dry for storage, however. The main issues with ethanol gas come from it having a short shelf life.

 

[Fish]

I didn't smoke the saw it just overheated, and ran again when I let it cool off and switched to non-eth gas. While I stand by the personal experience of Ethanol being bad for most small engines, especially older pre-2000 engines, I will admit that you can run it. The ethanol makes the engines run leaner and hotter, but also has it's own host of problems such as it's love for water and it's corrosive properties. You can richen the fuel mixture to compensate for the leaning but your engine will still run hotter compared to normal gas. The other problems like corrosion and water can be mitigated via what a previous poster said by making sure to never leave fuel in the tank and carb, Stabil can still help in this area as well. You will have to be very diligent with maintenance and keeping the tank dry if you use gas with ethanol. Although I do have an MS170 that runs okay on E10 with proper maintenance.

What did you say to get all of this neg. rep?

 

[jdemaris]

Regarding mix oils again,I was reading another thread and the comment that Eyolf made (Thread is "Black fuel showed up again"), he discovered someone is routinely using old black crankcase oil for mix oil at 20-1 in all his equipment and outboard motor too,read it if you need a good laugh!

Even up into the late 80s, Stihl allowed 30W motor oil mixed a 20 or 25-1 in new saws. It wasn't preferred, but WAS allowed and worked fine. Now used oil? I suspect it would work just as well if clean and you actually knew it was 30W or 40W. I use mine for bar oil or burning in my diesel tractors.

As to gas mix going bad in few months? That's silly. Yeah, gasoline turns when exposed to air. Last pretty long when not. I just started up my Datsun 280Z with 5 year old gasoline that was treated once with Stabil. I've also seen untreated gas go bad in one year when exposed to air and sunlight.

I own several remote properties that I don't get to often. At all, I've got 5 gallon gas/oil mix for my chain saws left there. I often leave it for 6-8 months, then come and use it and it's fine. No problems. I DO treat with Stabil.

About two-stroke oil. To me, most important is two factors. Anti-wear ingredients and flash-point. Many makers do not post these specs for air-cooled rated oil. Flast-point is the temperature when oil stops being oil and gives zero lube. Omni oil sold as Stihl Ultra has a flash point of 428 degrees F which is pretty good. Note though that Shell Rotella 30W oil made from pure petro has a 430 F flash point. Ammsoil Saber is 248 F. Pennzoil Multipurpose two-stroke oil is 212 F.

Now, Stihl "Universal" two-stroke oil has a flash-point of only 160 degrees which is a joke.

The accepted standard for air-cooled two-stroke oil in the USA is API-TC. Many saws now call for the European standard of JASO FC or FD. Or ISO-L-EGD.

Some of these newer standards are about less smoke and higher detergency and not better lube.

I've been running 20 to 1 in all my saws for many years, regardless if they are 60 years old or 1 year old as long as they have carbs that can be adjusted. Put too much oil in a new saw that you cannot adjust, and it might suffer from a lean mixture. More oil and less gas per given volume results in a leaner air-fuel ratio in a standard carb.

 

[splitpost]

there's your problem.

problem solved,rep sent,
Oh yeah i run 25:1 in all my saws ,why?........because stihl Australia can be real a$$holes with their warranty on big saws if you dont

 

[ZeroJunk]

Local saw shop guy who has been working on small engines for decades tested gas from several stations a couple of years ago and some of the gas was 25% ethanol. At that time they were mixing it when it was delivered. The tanker driver would dump his gas and then add pure ethanol from another tank is the way it was explained to me. Now I think they mix it at the tank farm so it should be more precise. But, I still am not comfortable that you are always getting 10% or whatever. I haven't lost a piston due to gas or oil related problems, but I avoid ethanol if possible. There is still a local ditributor selling ethanol free.

I have run quite a bit of Ultra as well as dino. I can't tell any difference in the way the saws run. But, eventually the Ultra will be cleaner. I have had saws in here that have been completely worn out and the piston was still in good shape running regular oil. So, I don't know that it makes much difference.

I suspect a lot of these failures have more to do with running lean than the gas or oil in the mix.

 

[indiansprings]

I agree 110% with Gasoline 71, it is either a tuning issue or someone is incorrectly mixing the fuel. I run 7-10 gallon of mix a week, Stihl Ultra and 10% ethanol, been using it since it came out. Can't buy real gas close enough to me to make it worth the effort. Burn it in every two cycle engine we own, some are 40+ years old. I've even left it in my string trimmers all winter and they fire up and run fine in the spring.
These post always come around every so often, I wonder how so many of us continue to make a living with saws, mixing Ultra 50:1 with ethanol, I've not once has a engine failure related to Ultra or the gas I'm using. I've had to replace a couple of fuel lines on older equipment which is usually necessecary anyway. Run clean fuel, mix accurately, if you aren't tuning with a tach, get you one, keep the spark arrestor screens clean, use as fresh as fuel as possible and life will get much simpler. I really believe more saws/two cycles are ruined by too many guys trying to tune their own, tuning too lean resulting in cooked equipment.
Some of these strato's, choked down mufflers, limited coils are harder for me to tune by ear, that and I'm half deaf from running this stuff for years with no hearing protection, a tach really helps me these days.