Probably been said, but usually a shop will NEVER reset their grinders (same top plate angle, same head angle). My experience is that they grind all chains the same and do not consult factory grind specifications. It is almost impossible to duplicate the factory grinds. You can come closer by filing by hand!
Shop Re-Sharpened Chains vs. Factory
- Thread starter John Lyngdal
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Khntr85
Addicted to ArboristSite
@HarleyT, wow you are right that was a good read, I just read the whole thread....man I wish there were pictures!!!!
I better stay away from reading anything about hot saws and race chains LOL.....hell I got enough on my plate now, with all that voodoo I would be living in my garage LMAO!!!!!
hedge hog
ArboristSite Guru
The cutters on a new chain were sharpened before assembly that why grinder can't duplicate it
Even a file can't or will be into tie strap
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My grinder has been set on 30 60 0 for 30+ years, if theres a slight difference in a new chain angle there wont be after the first sharpening. Steve
Khntr85
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well no one will ever be able to duplicate a factory chain (with a file or a grinder), I doubt anyone has the same "machine" that they use at the factory to profile the cutters....
With that said you can get a chain to cut as good, or better with a file or grinder for sure.....I have really gotten into grinding and it is very fun/interesting to me....so many different angles and ways to do it....Once I found a "recipe" for each brand of chain I use, I was TOTALLY shocked at the results....I can now easily get a chain to cut as good or better than out of the box, and I can repeat this chain after chain.....
I have also realized that you can only get a chain so "sharp" before it becomes vulnerable to dulling very quick...... @Philbert told me something that I will always remember and tell myself frequently when filing/grinding.....he said, "think of the cutters like a wood chisel"....this may not seem like much, but it is a VERY true statement....if you start trying to get a wood chisel to sharp, the working edge is to weak to hold up to any kind of hard use!!!!
I have included a picture from the Stihl website...I tried to "google" a picture of their grinding machine and couldn't find one...this is all I could find....
With that said you can get a chain to cut as good, or better with a file or grinder for sure.....I have really gotten into grinding and it is very fun/interesting to me....so many different angles and ways to do it....Once I found a "recipe" for each brand of chain I use, I was TOTALLY shocked at the results....I can now easily get a chain to cut as good or better than out of the box, and I can repeat this chain after chain.....
I have also realized that you can only get a chain so "sharp" before it becomes vulnerable to dulling very quick...... @Philbert told me something that I will always remember and tell myself frequently when filing/grinding.....he said, "think of the cutters like a wood chisel"....this may not seem like much, but it is a VERY true statement....if you start trying to get a wood chisel to sharp, the working edge is to weak to hold up to any kind of hard use!!!!
I have included a picture from the Stihl website...I tried to "google" a picture of their grinding machine and couldn't find one...this is all I could find....
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It was a great one, when you could see the pics!!!
LoveStihlQuality
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Ax-man
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Awhile back in this thread I was asked to rekindle my relationship with my Foley 307. I had a little time on my hands so I figured what the heck let's see what happens. I dig out a Carlton A-2 chain for some practice grinding . This A2 looks like Stihl RM chain, a semi chisel not like the old style chipper chain. I decided to post up my machine grinding for comments.
First three pics are of that Carlton chain ,not my filing someone else did a real bad job filing this chain. If you have an eye for detail you know what is wrong with it . The next two pics are my grinding the tooth front and back view. Comments good or bad are welcome.
As a side note if anyone is following the Stihl usg thread I have a post on that one regarding the Stihl usg numbers and if it can be applied to my old Foley or just stick to my manuel. Again any comments would be helpful as this grinder stuff is still kind of new to me even though I had this old grinder for over 10 years.
First three pics are of that Carlton chain ,not my filing someone else did a real bad job filing this chain. If you have an eye for detail you know what is wrong with it . The next two pics are my grinding the tooth front and back view. Comments good or bad are welcome.
As a side note if anyone is following the Stihl usg thread I have a post on that one regarding the Stihl usg numbers and if it can be applied to my old Foley or just stick to my manuel. Again any comments would be helpful as this grinder stuff is still kind of new to me even though I had this old grinder for over 10 years.
You gave that chain a new life!
Did you check the depth gauges? They don't look like they were touched.
Philbert
Did you check the depth gauges? They don't look like they were touched.
Philbert
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Your right, I didn't do anything to the depth gauges yet. That will be next. I was just seeing how close I could come to making the chain look as good as if I hand filed it. Sounds like I did good , Thank-you.
Khntr85
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hello sir, i can't see the top plate face angle, but yep that chain will cut....looks like someone hogged out rakers pretty good prior to you getting it....just double check them....
As far as the angles on a usg matching up to an Oregon, no they are not the same....I have an Oregon, so I do know this first hand....I do not know much about your foley(other that I want one lol)...
Also continue to play with that usg, cause that is basically the best round grinder made right now!!!
I debated getting one, but I do like my Oregon 520 a lot...once I found out so many shops use the 511/520 Oregons, I knew it would stand up to my use, easily!!!!
Anyway keep us informed, and I would love to see pics of foley grinder.....
I took my grinder off the work bench a few weeks ago. I gave it to my buddy just down the road from me. He does stump grinding and always has a stack of chains that need sharpening. Last time I sharpened his chains, he brought in 27 loops of 3/8 for a 24in bar. I have another buddy that likes to bring me 4 or 5 chains at a time also. I have never charged either of them to sharpen their chains and they do return the favor by plowing my garden or bushhogging, and other things. Still, sharpening 27 loops of chain at one time gets old after a while. Giving the grinder to my buddy means he now can grind his own chains, and if I need to grind one, I just drive a 1/4mile to his shop and use the grinder. I have 4 or 5 saws at any given time and a few extra loops of chain laying around I try to keep sharp at all times. I dont remember the last time I bought a new chain, its been a while. Since I only cut about 4 or 5 cords a year, I can get by a whole season without having to sharpen a chain and when I do, I'll just take them all down to my buddies and hit them a lick and promise with the grinder. I just freed up a bunch of my time by getting rid of the grinder.
Khntr85
Addicted to ArboristSite
What kind of grinder is it....and did you like the way it preformed??
It was one of those yellow $100 Northern tool grinders. I had a $20 off coupon and paid around $80 for it. Out of the box it had to much slack in it, but I made a few bushings, threw away some of the cheap plastic knobs that wouldnt stay adjusted and it worked very well after that. The degrees chart was off about 5* and I set and marked it using a new chain. I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one just like it, but I would do so knowing it would probably need a little fine tuning before using.
Ax-man
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Khntr85, You requested more pics and info , here we go, you asked for it so this is going to be a long post and pic heavy. You have been keeping me busy with this grinder thing. Which is a good thing for me as I am learning something new.You were right about the rakers being low . Good eyes. I checked them and they were a little too low but passable. I check depth gauges with a flat piece of metal across the top of the teeth and a feeler gauge.
Next thing on the list. As I was trying to get this chain straightened out to eliminate that awful forward hook the grinding wheel started to nick the tooth stop or in other words grinding in to it due to the shortened tooth length which is well past the halfway point. I was trying to achieve the same depth on the side plate as if I was hand filing it. Am I grinding too deep or is this a common problem with a grinder or is it just my particular grinder. I can raise the height of the wheel but this seems counter intuitive to my way of sharpening . On this same note I have seen many machine sharpened chains that only seem to have had the top plate sharpened and very little on the side plate . This again is wrong to me , leaves a gullet that needs to be cleaned out before the chain will cut properly. When I first got this grinder this badly abused stop was the first thing I noticed that was wrong and am trying to avoid this mistake again if possible . This part is still available from Foley but that isn't the idea to chew up parts and then buy new ones.
Carlton chain has always been tough for me to hand file for some reason which is a reason why I chose it for this little experiment. I lucked out on this particular one because it is .058 gauge which I have no use for and I happen to have a bar for it ,a Sandvick bar of all things that mounted up to one of my old Homelites. I figured I would give this a go before moving unto my good stihl stuff.
Let's move onto the pics. My old Foley 307 which is the stand up version. In it's day it was probably the deluxe grinder too have . It has been through two mower /chainsaw dealers. I got it and other stuff when the last dealer went out of business . I only bought it to sharpen big bar rocked out chains that hit rock, concrete or tramp metal. I probably have only sharpened five to ten chains with it over the last 10 or more years since. A waste I know but I have stated in the past the pros and cons using a grinder verses hand filing which I am not going to get into here as this thread is about using a grinder verses buying factory new chains.
Top plate angle pic of this same Carlton chain and Sandvik bar mounted on an old XL to check depth gauges on my hand filing station with modified stump vise that swings from one side to the other to do right and left hand cutters. Another pic of Homelite 410 along with some tools I use to hand file. This really isn't related to the thread just thought I would toss this in for something different.
XL in my current test log ,dry old crotchy oak log and a pic of the chips my sharpening produced. Another shot of XL in a noodle type cut and the resulting noodles if you want to call them that.
Considering the saw is in fair condition mechanically, the dry old wood , Carlton chain that is tough for me to file by hand compared to Stihl or Oregon I think the results were a little better than average than I would have gotten filing this old chain by hand not to mention faster time wise . I was pleased with the results but if anyone cares to post comments good or bad please do so. It seems using a grinder has it's own set of rules to follow to get a chain sharp verses the way it is done hand filing.
Gotta love Friday nights to post on AS. That's it ,I have said too much and going a little overboard for me.
Next thing on the list. As I was trying to get this chain straightened out to eliminate that awful forward hook the grinding wheel started to nick the tooth stop or in other words grinding in to it due to the shortened tooth length which is well past the halfway point. I was trying to achieve the same depth on the side plate as if I was hand filing it. Am I grinding too deep or is this a common problem with a grinder or is it just my particular grinder. I can raise the height of the wheel but this seems counter intuitive to my way of sharpening . On this same note I have seen many machine sharpened chains that only seem to have had the top plate sharpened and very little on the side plate . This again is wrong to me , leaves a gullet that needs to be cleaned out before the chain will cut properly. When I first got this grinder this badly abused stop was the first thing I noticed that was wrong and am trying to avoid this mistake again if possible . This part is still available from Foley but that isn't the idea to chew up parts and then buy new ones.
Carlton chain has always been tough for me to hand file for some reason which is a reason why I chose it for this little experiment. I lucked out on this particular one because it is .058 gauge which I have no use for and I happen to have a bar for it ,a Sandvick bar of all things that mounted up to one of my old Homelites. I figured I would give this a go before moving unto my good stihl stuff.
Let's move onto the pics. My old Foley 307 which is the stand up version. In it's day it was probably the deluxe grinder too have . It has been through two mower /chainsaw dealers. I got it and other stuff when the last dealer went out of business . I only bought it to sharpen big bar rocked out chains that hit rock, concrete or tramp metal. I probably have only sharpened five to ten chains with it over the last 10 or more years since. A waste I know but I have stated in the past the pros and cons using a grinder verses hand filing which I am not going to get into here as this thread is about using a grinder verses buying factory new chains.
Top plate angle pic of this same Carlton chain and Sandvik bar mounted on an old XL to check depth gauges on my hand filing station with modified stump vise that swings from one side to the other to do right and left hand cutters. Another pic of Homelite 410 along with some tools I use to hand file. This really isn't related to the thread just thought I would toss this in for something different.
XL in my current test log ,dry old crotchy oak log and a pic of the chips my sharpening produced. Another shot of XL in a noodle type cut and the resulting noodles if you want to call them that.
Considering the saw is in fair condition mechanically, the dry old wood , Carlton chain that is tough for me to file by hand compared to Stihl or Oregon I think the results were a little better than average than I would have gotten filing this old chain by hand not to mention faster time wise . I was pleased with the results but if anyone cares to post comments good or bad please do so. It seems using a grinder has it's own set of rules to follow to get a chain sharp verses the way it is done hand filing.
Gotta love Friday nights to post on AS. That's it ,I have said too much and going a little overboard for me.
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Long post: a couple of quick comments.
On the Oregon style grinders the chain stop is adjustable, side-to-side, to clear the grinding wheel, when needed.
BOTH the top and side edges need to be sharp - some guys obsessed with 'hook' miss this. The side plate edge actually chops through the grain when crosscutting, and many people believe that it has the 'harder job'.
Philbert
On the Oregon style grinders the chain stop is adjustable, side-to-side, to clear the grinding wheel, when needed.
BOTH the top and side edges need to be sharp - some guys obsessed with 'hook' miss this. The side plate edge actually chops through the grain when crosscutting, and many people believe that it has the 'harder job'.
Philbert
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks, I'll check mine to see if I can move that stop or fix it somehow to get it out of the way of the grinding wheel. I have suspected all along that something wasn't quite right with this set-up and would definitely make this grinder more valuable to me to use.
Here is the Oregon chain stop side-to-side adjustment:
Philbert
Philbert
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wow, that is fancy compared to mine. I'll have to see if mine is missing some parts . My owners manual does have a parts diagram for this grinder.
Khntr85
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wow what a cool old grinder you have!!!
I would say once you get her all set-up to your liking, you will continue to get better and better chains...
I be your grinder has a "beefy" chain stop as it seems a lot of this old grinders were built to survive the a-b$mb.....keep us posted!!!
