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alexcagle

Cutoff Saw Specialist
AS Supporting Member.
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
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Chainsaws will probably be utilizing these in the near future, so I thought I'd post this here. :yes:
These injectors are really expensive, so I actually took apart a dead one just to see what was inside, just out of curiosity.

They are a warranty item covered under epa guidelines for a two year period. This is a good selling point if your customer is squeemish about complex and expensive fuel injection repairs. This one was worn out and was not metering, (sealing) the fuel correctly. The stainless part on the bottom right in the picture below that has a hole in it is what the blue rubber seats against. The tip looks like it chewed up something that roughed it up.
Also you can see the matching deformation of the rubber in the top picture, which probably resulted from fuel quality, debris, high mileage, or just too many jumps to light speed.....lol

Even after a recalibration with the MDG-1 tester, the saw still couldn't compensate for the extra fuel.
It was ending up way to rich to maintain an idle because of the excess fuel loading up in the combustion chamber.
20170311_161041.jpg
The square thing houses the bypass check valve, which looks to be electrofuse welded to the injector housing. There is a wire imbedded along a seal seam at it's base. It took a bit of head scratching to figure just exactly what the one wire was for.....
I used to sell an industrial acid waste pipe called "fuseal" at a pumbing wholesaler that utilized a similar seal method. Basically electrical current gets fed into each end of the wire, then gets hot and melts the two pieces of plastic housing together. This is after after a chinese worker puts the rubber check valve and it's return spring in, then covers it, and zaps it permanently in place.
20170311_173304.jpg
The rubber check valve bypasses any pressure above 2.5 psi on the inlet line. If it's lower than that, there is something internally wrong with the injector.
20170311_161117.jpg
The blue rubber is what is lifted by the solenoid in super fast cycles that let the pressurized fuel spray into the crankcase. The solenoid cyclic speed is regulated by the computer at up to 20 times per second at top speed, which is more like a vibration I'm sure.
As you can see, the rubber seal on this one is worn to the point that it is toast.
Most times they leak when you pump the primer, causing gas to pump right into the crankcase causing a no start condition.
20170311_160949.jpg
 
for a period of time, some years back,, you could buy rebuilt injectors for any American car....................and with the price of those,, and the use of them till the saw goes tits up.. man could someone make some bucks rebuilding them,, if you could get or make the parts..............
 
They're made by Zama, which if I'm not mistaken, Stihl owns. Its an S222-327a injector.
They used to cost around $70 (dealer cost) until the EPA nitrile fuel line legislation for wetted fuel hoses came into play. Now they are about $135 and come with the three hoses retained in a clip that have to be replaced when you disconnect them. (Which I feel is costly and unneccesary B.S).
 
Fuel-Injected small engines, what is this world coming to......? Instead of taking steps backwards with this farce called the EPA and 'global warming', why isn't the NRC taking the spotlight and drawing up guidelines for fission-powered hand-operated chainsaws? Oh, that's right, I guess there's no money in it, since they wouldn't be selling 'carbon (footprint) credits'.

Appreciate the write-up alexcagle, either way.
 
Is the pump part of the injector or a separate piece?
*
It's separate.
Here's an ugly one off a crunched parts saw.

1489320756208-542548211.jpg
One in, one out, and the impulse.

When you get ready to start it, you pump the primer about 12 times manually to pressurize the injector and purge the air back to the tank.
Then move the switch to run, press the decompression valve, and it should start on the first or second pull, if it's running right. Even if it's zero degrees outside too.
 
Fuel-Injected small engines, what is this world coming to......? Instead of taking steps backwards with this farce called the EPA and 'global warming', why isn't the NRC taking the spotlight and drawing up guidelines for fission-powered hand-operated chainsaws? Oh, that's right, I guess there's no money in it, since they wouldn't be selling 'carbon (footprint) credits'.

Appreciate the write-up alexcagle, either way.
*
Welcome.
I agree with you on global warming.
I'm 53, had no kids by choice, so I could care less. lol
The Earth will likely have a large asteriod strike, a coronal mass ejaculation.... er ejection from the Sun that zaps all the electronics, or a Yellowstone "Super Volcano" that makes crispy critters out of all of us.
 
@alexcagle I have a TS500i, 2015 Model that I am working on that came in with the problem of when tipped fwd it would die. Replaced the injector pump and the fuel lines. Replaced decom valve based on previous techs diagnosis. Still wont start. Tested with MDG1 and it gives an error code of 0812, injection valve temporarily w/o function. Tested the injector valve and it tested good. At a loss where to go next with this? Any ideas?
 
@alexcagle I have a TS500i, 2015 Model that I am working on that came in with the problem of when tipped fwd it would die. Replaced the injector pump and the fuel lines. Replaced decom valve based on previous techs diagnosis. Still wont start. Tested with MDG1 and it gives an error code of 0812, injection valve temporarily w/o function. Tested the injector valve and it tested good. At a loss where to go next with this? Any ideas?
*
Roger, You might try pulling the fuel filter off, attach the pressure tester to it. Then remove the top shroud, and plug off the longer nipple on the tank bung top side, that the fuel pickup line attaches to on the inside the tank. See if it holds 8 psi pressure. Make sure you don't kink the line and get a false reading. If this hose is leaking halfway up, it could explain the dying while tilting problem. However, this would not cause an error code in the computers memory. I have seen some quirky readings on my MDG1 tester before though, like having everything test good one minute, then problems on a second run. Make sure you check for updates on your MDG1 by hooking it up to the internet. Mine just did a major update that seemed to make it work better.
*
I didn't see mention of changing the fuel filter. I would assume that when the saw gets tilted during use, it also gets ramped up to full throttle, which would cause a higher flow. I've seen the combination of a spongy fuel hose with a restrictive fuel filter cause the fuel line to collapse. The fuel hoses are very flexible by design to allow it to be an all position machine. The filter has to be able to go with the flow of gravity and stay submerged in the fuel in the tank. Even at a 1/4 tank.
I haven't seen any fuel injector harness problems. I however have seen many generator harness wires either wear bare, or give intermittent dying problems because the connection at the end of one of the male or female connectors has vibrated so much, the wires are broken inside the rubber wire covering. Why it would only have problems when tilted during use could be attributed to a flexing of the spring mounts causing a wire to lose connection temporarily. Since you have a memory code that the injector was temporarily without function, it may be that you have a harness problem, or a faulty injector.
*
Make sure you dump the fuel and check that there isn't water that was on the bottom getting sucked in when the water follows gravity.
*
Is the primer hard to push, or seem solid at times? There is a tiny fuel screen inside the injector that I've seen get clogged on a few of these saws. The left most nipple looking from the rear, which is the inlet, can be removed with pliers. Then look down inside to inspect the screen. If you don't have a primer that is hard to press, then don't waste your time checking the screen.
*
Test procedure I've been told is: Remove the shroud. Crack open the fuel cap. Then remove the inlet hose to the injector from the primer, (far left on the primer fuel pump), and hook a pressure tester up to it. Pump gently. It should go to around 4 to 5 psi until you feel it start bypassing. Then without pumping, it should bleed down to no less than 2.5 psi then hold. Any slow bleeding down below 2.5 psi indicates a faulty injector as well. There is a specially designed spring that is held in by the outlet nipple from the injector that presses a needle, like in a common carburetor, to achieve the 2.5 psi bypass pressure.
I have seen new injectors that have had a stuck bypass valve out of the box that went up to 10 or 15 psi until it bypassed. Then it operated normally from then on.
*
One other thing I might suspect is the injector wires within the connector plug at the computer, and check that the pins aren't bent. Also check wiring integrity between the aluminum wire routing cover plate, with a ground connection, (on the left side half under the fan cover), to the computer. This is where the wire flexing will occur the most.
:)
Good luck, Alex
 
*
Roger, You might try pulling the fuel filter off, attach the pressure tester to it. Then remove the top shroud, and plug off the longer nipple on the tank bung top side, that the fuel pickup line attaches to on the inside the tank. See if it holds 8 psi pressure. Make sure you don't kink the line and get a false reading. If this hose is leaking halfway up, it could explain the dying while tilting problem. However, this would not cause an error code in the computers memory. I have seen some quirky readings on my MDG1 tester before though, like having everything test good one minute, then problems on a second run. Make sure you check for updates on your MDG1 by hooking it up to the internet. Mine just did a major update that seemed to make it work better.
*
I didn't see mention of changing the fuel filter. I would assume that when the saw gets tilted during use, it also gets ramped up to full throttle, which would cause a higher flow. I've seen the combination of a spongy fuel hose with a restrictive fuel filter cause the fuel line to collapse. The fuel hoses are very flexible by design to allow it to be an all position machine. The filter has to be able to go with the flow of gravity and stay submerged in the fuel in the tank. Even at a 1/4 tank.
I haven't seen any fuel injector harness problems. I however have seen many generator harness wires either wear bare, or give intermittent dying problems because the connection at the end of one of the male or female connectors has vibrated so much, the wires are broken inside the rubber wire covering. Why it would only have problems when tilted during use could be attributed to a flexing of the spring mounts causing a wire to lose connection temporarily. Since you have a memory code that the injector was temporarily without function, it may be that you have a harness problem, or a faulty injector.
*
Make sure you dump the fuel and check that there isn't water that was on the bottom getting sucked in when the water follows gravity.
*
Is the primer hard to push, or seem solid at times? There is a tiny fuel screen inside the injector that I've seen get clogged on a few of these saws. The left most nipple looking from the rear, which is the inlet, can be removed with pliers. Then look down inside to inspect the screen. If you don't have a primer that is hard to press, then don't waste your time checking the screen.
*
Test procedure I've been told is: Remove the shroud. Crack open the fuel cap. Then remove the inlet hose to the injector from the primer, (far left on the primer fuel pump), and hook a pressure tester up to it. Pump gently. It should go to around 4 to 5 psi until you feel it start bypassing. Then without pumping, it should bleed down to no less than 2.5 psi then hold. Any slow bleeding down below 2.5 psi indicates a faulty injector as well. There is a specially designed spring that is held in by the outlet nipple from the injector that presses a needle, like in a common carburetor, to achieve the 2.5 psi bypass pressure.
I have seen new injectors that have had a stuck bypass valve out of the box that went up to 10 or 15 psi until it bypassed. Then it operated normally from then on.
*
One other thing I might suspect is the injector wires within the connector plug at the computer, and check that the pins aren't bent. Also check wiring integrity between the aluminum wire routing cover plate, with a ground connection, (on the left side half under the fan cover), to the computer. This is where the wire flexing will occur the most.
:)
Good luck, Alex
@alexcagle found the issue. The previous technician who took apart the saw went on vacation and customer was upset bc he didn't have his saw and they asked me to step in and repair. I replaced the injector pump and fuel lines along with the decompression valve per what previous tech had ordered and it started very hard after putting back together. Long story short didn't notice when I put it together the throttle cable housing framework is very flimsy and it wasn't locked in place where it should have been causing extra tension on the throttle cable. This being the first 500I I have worked on I missed that and the fact I didn't take apart I received a good lesson and knowledge from this repair. They do need to redesign the throttle assembly on the 500I bc it is way to cheap made. Thanks for the help and quick response, much appreciated!
 
I've been getting quite a few fan side crank bearing failures of late.
If the seal gets destroyed by the bearing cage, then the saw will not let the coil spark because of the crankcase primary compression pressure is not within parameters.
Plus crankshaft failures on the lower rod bearing. Holy crap they are expensive at $220.00 !
 
They're made by Zama, which if I'm not mistaken, Stihl owns. Its an S222-327a injector.
They used to cost around $70 (dealer cost) until the EPA nitrile fuel line legislation for wetted fuel hoses came into play. Now they are about $135 and come with the three hoses retained in a clip that have to be replaced when you disconnect them. (Which I feel is costly and unneccesary B.S).
Hey there Alex you seem to know what your talking about when it comes to these saws (ts500i) I'm working on one that I believe needs an injector everything else has been replaced (computer/ignition module, injector pump, fuel sensor, lines, filters, generator, and spark plug) what happens is the saw starts and runs fine, when you give it full acceleration for about 30 seconds it dies like its not getting fuel so do you think the injector will fix it I found one on ebay for like $200 just need a second opinion before buying and if you know where I could get one cheaper ot would be much appreciated thanks in advance
 

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Hey there Alex you seem to know what your talking about when it comes to these saws (ts500i) I'm working on one that I believe needs an injector everything else has been replaced (computer/ignition module, injector pump, fuel sensor, lines, filters, generator, and spark plug) what happens is the saw starts and runs fine, when you give it full acceleration for about 30 seconds it dies like its not getting fuel so do you think the injector will fix it I found one on ebay for like $200 just need a second opinion before buying and if you know where I could get one cheaper ot would be much appreciated thanks in advance

Sorry, I need to check messages more often.
I hope you figgere'd it out?
 

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