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SRT RADS and Tree Frog demo

Discussion in 'Recreational Tree Climbing' started by moss, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    This is a followup on the "SRT Training" thread. Bob and I went back to the woods and made some video, first Bob climbing on the Yo-Yo (RADS) and me demo'ing my Tree Frog configuration:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlJc2ZL3Io
    -moss
     
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  2. demographic

    demographic Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Quite interesting, I used to rock climb a fair bit years ago and also had the Petzl ascenders for getting into old mines using SRT, I remember the Grigri coming out but never used one yet, looks a good bit of kit and makes changing over from ascenders to a descender a far simpler process than my mate and I used to do.

    Thanks for posting it.

    Scott.
     
  3. bulldoglover

    bulldoglover ArboristSite Operative

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    Moss, I have to thank you. I found this thread last night and spent the rest of the night on your you tube page(till my wife yelled at me that I was keeping her up). I'v been climbing for a long time and was thinking of trying SRT. After your you tube I am all excited about it, Wish'n I had a few hundred bucks to go get the equipment. Keep those videos coming, I enjoyed the "how to" aspect. looks like you use one rope for Srt and one for Drt, is that the best way? Thanks for all the info.
     
  4. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    You can get started with a couple of handled ascenders (Texas system) and an F8. You can do it all on one 150' arb rope, one of the 11mm ropes works best with the hardware. I use a dedicated 200 ft. static rope for climbs on taller conifers where I have to hike to the tree. For most hardwood trees you use an 11mm arb rope for regular friciton hitch climbing and SRT. If you cinch a 150' rope with say a running bowline you can SRT up, lanyard in and switch over to DRT/friction hitch to climb in the crown. I've done that method with a split tail on the rope as the lower ascender and a handled ascender up top When you switch over to DRT in the tree the hitch is already on the rope ready to go. So there's ways to do it safe without spending a ton of money on hardware.
    -moss
     
  5. deevo

    deevo Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Good video, I've been using the RAD system for 2 years now with 11 mm blaze and the fly. Great system, very simple/safe, and efficient. I recommend it for sure too anyone looking for a SRT set up! :greenchainsaw:
     
  6. bulldoglover

    bulldoglover ArboristSite Operative

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    Thanks moss.
     
  7. tree md

    tree md Addicted to ArboristSite

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    How convenient, I was just trying to compare the RAD and tree frog systems and got this topic as my first hit when I searched.

    Great demo Moss!

    In your opinion, which is the most efficient system? Looks like the RAD would be a more energy saving system and I love the thought of having a gri gri for quick descent but the tree frog looks very slick as well. BTW, best demo of the tree frog I have seen yet.

    I bought my saddle (Petzl Mini Boss) with the tree frog in mind but I am starting to lean toward the RAD system. It's more cost effective and like I said, I like the gri gri.

    Keeping in mind that I am a top heavy climber, which do you think would work best for me? I do plan to switch over to DRT once topside.

    Thus far I have been ascending on a doubled line with a foot and hand ascender.
     
  8. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    Glad that demo did the job for you. Tree Frog is significantly more efficient but RADS is potentially a better work system since you can switch ascent and descent modes quickly. The TF excels for long climbs away from the trunk, I don't like it as much working through tight branches against the trunk in a conifer, RADS is much better for that. The good news is it's easy enough to switch between RADS and TF during a climb if you want to use one or the other.

    For top heavy climbers some variety of rope walker system with a chest roller is going to be a good option. Here's a friend definitely in that category moving nicely up the rope on a modified arb/caving system, he calls it a bungee rope walker:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkFE40ZrHo

    He describes the system in this thread:
    http://treeclimbercoalition.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1313

    -moss
     
  9. tree md

    tree md Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Very cool system. I was reading about some sort of bungee system a little while back, maybe in On Rope. Sounds interesting. I also saw some footage of someone using a bungee system on a doubled rope on another site. Looked like a very efficient way to ascend on a doubled line as well. As soon as I get some play money where I can buy what I want to and not have to buy what I need I am going to get a croll, techcord and other goodies and try some new techniques. I wish I had someone close around me to rec climb with and learn.

    Thanks for the info Moss!
     
  10. SINGLE-JACK

    SINGLE-JACK AboristSite Guru

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    moss -

    The pulley in the RADS system, is it really needed? Is pulling the rope down really adding enough efficiency to warrant the addition of the pulley? What's the downside of simply running the rope through the biner? Or better yet, how about just pulling rope up out of the GRIGRI?

    ... just looking to simplify, if reasonable

    - Jack
     
  11. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    To make the Grigri function properly you need to redirect the tail upward. It would be a huge waste of energy to do it by hand, could be done but I think you'd get tired off it pretty quick. You could substitute a biner for the pulley but having it run nice and easy over a pulley adds enough efficiency to make it worthwhile. Here's another way of looking at it. Climbers who use a slack tender on their DdRT system can install a pulley or just redirect the tail though the biner that holds the split tail. I've tried it and I always go back to using a micropulley. I think it's the same for RADS pulley, you can go with out it but it's much better with it.

    Jim Dunlap on the Buzzboard has his rigged with a pulley with one cheek removed, that way it's quick to take the rope off when you need to. The downside is that the rope can jump off the pulley at the wrong time.
    -moss
     
  12. SINGLE-JACK

    SINGLE-JACK AboristSite Guru

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    Thanks! I've got the pulley and the other elements - just trying to evaluate all alternatives while determining if the GRIGRI is a worthwhile investment for tree work - it's good to have alternative techniques.
     
  13. cookiecutter

    cookiecutter ArboristSite Lurker

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    In this set up I have substituded the GRIGRI with a mad lock http://www.madrockclimbing.com/madlockbelaydevice.aspx in cinch mode. A petzl reverso or similiar in cinch mode can also be used. There is an extra step involved when you decide to decend, but it works alright. I only propose this as an alternative technique with gear you may already have, it is much smoother with a GRIGRI.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  14. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    Can you post a photo? Curious to see what this looks like rigged to climb.
    -moss
     
  15. cookiecutter

    cookiecutter ArboristSite Lurker

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    Here is a video showing it rigged up.
    In the video there are also two other techniques I've messed around with. One utilizing the Alpine clutch, the other a cinching munter (I'm not sure of the correct name). The madlock technique I have used in a tree, the other two I have only tried in my research lab aka college apartment.

    I propose none of these as 'go to' methods and none of them will I use in a tree until I have done solid testing on them low to the ground. They are just what I could come up with with the limited gear I have.

    Thoughts?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jsViEU3us8
     
  16. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    Nice improvisations Cookiecutter. I like the Madrock belay device setup the most, it seems to have the quickest/easiest switchover to rappel mode.

    There is a point of diminishing returns with RADS alternatives, it's biggest virtue is that you have rappel immediately available. Especially if you don't have the ascender tethered to your harness, you can bail out instantly if needed. So the more involved the switchover on a RADS, the more you have to wonder if a Texas or other two ascender ascent technique is going to be better since the switchover on those systems is reasonably easy and they're more efficient for ascent then a RADS.

    All that said I appreciate your thinking and obvious rope smarts.
    -moss
     
  17. cookiecutter

    cookiecutter ArboristSite Lurker

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    Good points, I hadn't thought that over. Your level of experience is clearly shown here. After reading your post and some more testing I think my alternatives are best left as cool tricks, not a whole lot of practical application. Has been fun figuring it out though.

    I have really appreciated your videos, they are enjoyable to watch and keep me learning!

    -cutter
     
  18. moss

    moss AboristSite Guru

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    Don't toss them, each of them is good to have in your bag of tricks, especially some of those locking setups on biners, if you only have hitches to climb SRT say in an emergency or in a backwoods minimal gear situation your systems are looking very good.
    -moss
     
  19. cookiecutter

    cookiecutter ArboristSite Lurker

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    I'll definitely be keeping them in the bag of tricks. Here is one more way that works, in my opinion, much better than the 3 i previously showed. It is much more yoyo friendly, rappel is instant if needed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5cHFx4Lz38
     
  20. SINGLE-JACK

    SINGLE-JACK AboristSite Guru

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    Moss -

    Yeah, you're right the pulley definately makes the RADS a lot easier. Please accept yet another question.

    I've been reading everything I can find about RADS and it's alternatives. I've found some pretty interesting (& strange) configurations. So, do you know of any reasonable way to use the GRIGRI in a Tree Frog system?

    - Jack
     

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