I've definitely got to go to that October auction just out of curiosity. Do they have food vendors at their auctions? Do you have to pay to get in?
Teach me everything you know about logging and forestry!
- Thread starter CaliforniaWalnut
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Woos31
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well first off I'll say I hope you're sincere with thing while and not some Jack wagon stick in the mud leading a goose chase. I would venture to say that since the 70's logging has been negatively impacted by environmentalists and has only gotten worse every year. Now also understand that the logging side of it wasn't straight and narrow either...........it was a take it all and as much of it as we get rape and pillage affair of sorts. Moving forward practices changed and evolved to meet the times and whatever other rules the anti side could bring forth to slow or stop logging altogether as if as soon as the crummy fires up and is out of site of town it's still all rape and pillage. Not so, there's much better management practices out there and believe it or not .........a forest isn't healthy if there are to many trees and yes old growth are still on the list of cut trees because they'll go to waste, fall over and rot away, or became a monsterous hazard to road or walking trail. Worst of all catastrophic fire can desimate an entire forest where no thinning or logging was done to reduce fire fuel, this can cause ecosystem collapse due to the fire having so much available fuel to get hot enough it will neutralize the soil and nothing comes back in..........everything wasted. You don't spend all summer tending your garden religiously and grow these big juicy tomatoes then leave them just to rot off the plant into? Sort of a similar idea and best example I've got at the moment. As for the tree huggin part they always have a reason for shutting a logging operation down weather it's a bird, plant, or other purple footed tree dweller (sarchasm). When I hear people's view that logging is this horrible thing which I was raised off the clear cut everything ideal of the 80's and it was an ugly time and it didn't help itself at all, but back in track I honestly want to ask people what they live in, what is it that you write on, what do you wipe your a$$ with? Because I feel it very hypocritical to be all save the earth on loggers but then after they go home to a 5000 sq ft house made of trees, read the newspaper again trees, and they're gonna require a bathroom break and again trees to clean themself up. They really need a logger more than realized. For your question about greed I think that one is a push.........meaning both parties are equally as greedy toward their thoughts and direction. But in the end they're both so passionate about the trees that neither wants see that's actually what they both want is to help mantain a healthier forest. Except the loggers will have a healthier forest..................and here's why; a logger is going to clear cut some areas tactfully now days which gives every animal in the woods fresh grasses and forage out in the sunlight and the next generation of trees to be planted. Other areas will be thinned to let more light to the forest floor and the trees won't be chocking out any ground foliage that deer and elk need to live off of. In turn the remaining trees will be a stronger tree because the competition for water and nutrients is cut in half so to say and they'll be that much bigger in say 20 years. The forest won't be so overgrown that nothing can grow for the ground level critter has nothing to forage on and safety from predators won't be there. Also if a fire ever got started and I'm thinking in terms of the west coast of oregon here, its been so dry there the past few summers that nothing would stop a wild fire but winter................that would be complete catastrophic fire like you see in parts of Oregon and Washington east of the cascade mountains, California, Montana and the list goes on. Managing the forests everywhere has gone by the wayside and it very sad and very scary to me. Its not all environmentalists doing that let this lackadaisical management style take a hold, but that movement is a contributing factor largely because people eventually have up fighting the ideal over and over again to try and do their job, to try and manage a healthy forest, to try and do what they used to love and provide for their family. Now you see all these bigger, more destructive fires, and more of these fires every year because there has been no thinning, there's been no fuel reduction, just overgrown unmanaged forest just waiting for a spark. Then it's devastatingly destroyed, and what's left in burnt timber that could be salvaged for some good, nope that timber sale just got appealed by a college class that was instructed to pick any sale and appeal it for their term finale. Yes you heard correct, it happened to a sale 20 years ago that my father in law had spent countless hours preparing when he worked for the forest service and later found out why it never flew. A professor back east instructed his class that their task was to (maybe appeal isn't the right word on thinking of) appeal a timber sale somewhere and everything went away.
Woos31
Addicted to ArboristSite
This was very respectful view on this @CaliforniaWalnut and I worked on it last night and finished this morning without losing my temper, the propaganda and hypocrisy @Westboastfaller mentioned took a job from my dad and food from my families mouth when I was growing up. Being a timber fallers son out of a family of loggers and timber fallers you could maybe understand my frustration.
Trace the money, "non" profit lawyers make millions off suing the Forest Service over proposed timber sales. About a year ago, on craigs list Greenpeace was hiring folks to "recruit" "earth warriors", they where offering $15 an hour and probably had 150 ads just in the seattle area, at $25 bucks an add.
Its proven profitable, every time some yahoo suits the gub-a-mint on behalf of the critters or whatever, they get multi million dollar settlements, not the critters mind you, the lawyers and non profit earth friendly groups are getting massive amounts of cashola.
So every time they can squeak in another endangered critter, they have the chance to make a bundle.
To add insult to injury, the spotted own research was flawed from the get go, and they admitted it, claiming that spotted owls only live in old growth forest... meanwhile they never bothered to look in second growth forest... personally I've only seen spotted owls in second growth...
The town of Darrington, is more or less where I grew up, its tiny now, at one time there where 4 mills in and around town, now there is only 1, everybody I knew as a child was involved in logging some how or some way. Then the Forest Service shut down the woods because of the spotted owl...
Within weeks most everyone had lost their jobs, within months folks started moving away, its pretty much a ghost town now... trying to rely on "tourism dollars" which is **** cause folks are going to buy their supplies closer to civilization, not up in the sticks where stuffs expensive and choices are slim. And its nearly free to go on a hike.
I think so? the main auction area is like a gymnasium, may have been a cafeteria hiding in there somewhere.
My favorite bumper sticker in my garage reads " Earth first, we'll log the other planets later ".
Woos31
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes sir! I like the other I think it's a t-shirt with a $hit load of stumps on it that says "don't worry........... I hugged them all first"
Woos31, it was an assignment in a class at Wellesly College that appealed a heck of a lot of timber sales in the early 1990s. They cost tax payers a lot of extra dollars because all appeals must be taken seriously. I've seen a sale appealed because an area had "good vibrations" in it. I can't think of the name of the sale, but it was up by Oroville, WA in the Mt. Hull area. Even that had to be addressed by at least the statement that it fell outside of the scope of the project.
The owl fiasco also has affected the Forest Service. In the 1990s, there was what we call a purge to get rid of the foresters and engineers and replace them with specialists ('ologists). That's when I started my move around to keep a job that I liked exile. The then labeled "surplus" timber people were moved over to the eastside, where timber sales were supposed to keep on and maybe even produce more--fuels reduction. That didn't happen. The eastside districts then had to get rid of "positions" and some of the recently moved westsiders had more seniority -- well, it was a big musical chair like, costly affair.
Now, we timber folks used to be fire qualified as well because we were out and about enough to keep in some semblance of shape. Most had started out in some kind of lowly work like planting trees and marking timber. We were used to going out, working hard, and getting dirty.
Not so with many (not all) of the newly hired specialists. They did not further their education just so they had to work on the end of a shovel or pulaski. So, many fire qualified people left the area. In my opinion, that has contributed to the growth in acreage of today's fires. There aren't enough people out in the woods to catch the fires before the fires grow in size.
Right now, the FS could not increase their timber sale program by very much. They do not have the timber workforce that they used to. Most all of the very knowledgeable people have retired. The entry level positions have been farmed out to contractors. Where I live, even the timber marking is done by the purchaser or logger.
That's where things stand. Meanwhile, the wildfires are starting to go here. We'll have money tossed away like crazy on fires, and maybe some money spent in the small towns for lunches.
The owl fiasco also has affected the Forest Service. In the 1990s, there was what we call a purge to get rid of the foresters and engineers and replace them with specialists ('ologists). That's when I started my move around to keep a job that I liked exile. The then labeled "surplus" timber people were moved over to the eastside, where timber sales were supposed to keep on and maybe even produce more--fuels reduction. That didn't happen. The eastside districts then had to get rid of "positions" and some of the recently moved westsiders had more seniority -- well, it was a big musical chair like, costly affair.
Now, we timber folks used to be fire qualified as well because we were out and about enough to keep in some semblance of shape. Most had started out in some kind of lowly work like planting trees and marking timber. We were used to going out, working hard, and getting dirty.
Not so with many (not all) of the newly hired specialists. They did not further their education just so they had to work on the end of a shovel or pulaski. So, many fire qualified people left the area. In my opinion, that has contributed to the growth in acreage of today's fires. There aren't enough people out in the woods to catch the fires before the fires grow in size.
Right now, the FS could not increase their timber sale program by very much. They do not have the timber workforce that they used to. Most all of the very knowledgeable people have retired. The entry level positions have been farmed out to contractors. Where I live, even the timber marking is done by the purchaser or logger.
That's where things stand. Meanwhile, the wildfires are starting to go here. We'll have money tossed away like crazy on fires, and maybe some money spent in the small towns for lunches.
Woos31
Addicted to ArboristSite
True that! That's what happened to my family, dad grew up on the oregon coast and the whole family was fallers or some for of logging............then in 90 like you said it all came to head and we went to eastern Oregon John day specifically and my uncle's contract falling business went a few more years but eventually secumbed like you said to the big change. The FS timber workforce probably matches the logging workforce available if it did increase. The **** runs downhill effect left a big gap in the contracting sector too as with the FS personell so there were no incoming businesses to learn what the retirement age folks now knew then of thinning and timber. There were some in sure but it seems like say my generation didn't really bring in any or do time any logging shows as demand was WAY down. This is nothing new for info to anyone, but it sure feels good to say it anyway haha
Just got back from brain stimulation--my walk. When I started with the FS, there were people to learn from. One guy could estimate the correct volume of a unit just by walking through it. His walking estimate would be right in the ballpark of the official timber cruise.
When I got "old", there was nobody to pass on any skills to.
We used to joke about "virtual forestry" and that is no longer a joke. However, it is only as acurate as the data that was put into it, and if you get out and check things on the ground, you will find lots of errors. Unfortunately, that data is used for planning and some people don't want to leave the office environment. You may have protected wetlands where there are no wetlands.
I'm glad I left.
When I got "old", there was nobody to pass on any skills to.
We used to joke about "virtual forestry" and that is no longer a joke. However, it is only as acurate as the data that was put into it, and if you get out and check things on the ground, you will find lots of errors. Unfortunately, that data is used for planning and some people don't want to leave the office environment. You may have protected wetlands where there are no wetlands.
I'm glad I left.
I've said it before, but I spent most of my middle/high school summers helping my uncle log, and or cutting firewood with the family. Most of what I know about logging comes from my uncles, one at the time was actively logging, but then scrambled and found work at the boing, the other decided a long time before I was born to get into wrenching, but still played with timber from time to time.
The early 90's where a rough time in Darrington, I graduated in 96, but pretty much knew there wasn't any chance of logging right out of school so got into a trade school through the high school as a way out of a dying town. It worked for awhile, but couldn't keep me out of the brush.
during the early 90's the export market went bananas. Largely because of the FS shutting down, and a ban on fed land being used to export timber, which is still in effect. Eventually that market dried up too. Its coming back around again now, last couple years have been pretty good.
For some reason I believe that going logging full time is the way to go... the whole trade school thing is the dead end now, low wages, everything getting farmed out to India or China etc...
Anyway the point is that with the Fed lands being cornholed by the "bunny huggers" it dashed a lot of folks dreams and lives, lots of folks turned to drinking and drugging to escape a stark reality of no work, no unemployment, no hope (hey much like inner cities...)
The early 90's where a rough time in Darrington, I graduated in 96, but pretty much knew there wasn't any chance of logging right out of school so got into a trade school through the high school as a way out of a dying town. It worked for awhile, but couldn't keep me out of the brush.
during the early 90's the export market went bananas. Largely because of the FS shutting down, and a ban on fed land being used to export timber, which is still in effect. Eventually that market dried up too. Its coming back around again now, last couple years have been pretty good.
For some reason I believe that going logging full time is the way to go... the whole trade school thing is the dead end now, low wages, everything getting farmed out to India or China etc...
Anyway the point is that with the Fed lands being cornholed by the "bunny huggers" it dashed a lot of folks dreams and lives, lots of folks turned to drinking and drugging to escape a stark reality of no work, no unemployment, no hope (hey much like inner cities...)
entry is free, they wan't you to spend money... so loans is easy too...
Much like a strip club only bring as much money as your willing to part with.
Now she knows exactly how much to bring
I had to keep a dozer out of one on a fire last week.
When I was young we went camping down the coast to visit my dads folks in California. We camped because money was tight so what there was went to gas for the trip. Dad had a VW bus and pulled a small trailer with all the camping stuff. Mom got the trailer by trading a big freezer we really didn't need to a neighbor. Dad worked on it several weekends to get it ready, it was a simple 4x6' utility trailer that he set up with a hinged plywood top that folded out into a table. A tarp kept the rain out so the sleeping bags stayed mostly dry.
Late one afternoon just outside a little town in N. California one of the bearings in the right hub on the trailer decided that it had enough and so it melted down. We parked in the parking lot of an auto parts store and bought a new bearing and some grease. We started working on it, but dad only brought a limited amount of tools and that race was welded on there. A guy and his wife stopped to help us. He was dirty and loud, he looked like a caveman but he was a diesel mechanic, once you got to know him a little he clearly had a good heart, worked hard, and was generous even to total strangers. His wife talked to mom while we worked on the trailer.
He finally got the old bearing off, the new one put on and several hours later we were ready to go. Dad offered him money for helping us but he refused, he said "As long as you don't hug trees or worship that stupid owl I won't take a dime."
As we started on our way again mom said that the wife told her that he had just been laid off at the mill, they were cutting 75% of the workforce because the spotted owl had shut down all the logging.
I drove through that town about ten years ago. The mill is gone. The auto parts store is gone. There are vacant buildings everywhere. It is clear that every so called economic recovery has never trickled down to that town. All around the town there are trees as far as the eye can see. I kept my eyes peeled for a loud dirty old man in a beat up old truck, but he too was nowhere to be found. Just another little American town killed by the false religion of environmentalism and bad decisions made by an out of touch government.
Late one afternoon just outside a little town in N. California one of the bearings in the right hub on the trailer decided that it had enough and so it melted down. We parked in the parking lot of an auto parts store and bought a new bearing and some grease. We started working on it, but dad only brought a limited amount of tools and that race was welded on there. A guy and his wife stopped to help us. He was dirty and loud, he looked like a caveman but he was a diesel mechanic, once you got to know him a little he clearly had a good heart, worked hard, and was generous even to total strangers. His wife talked to mom while we worked on the trailer.
He finally got the old bearing off, the new one put on and several hours later we were ready to go. Dad offered him money for helping us but he refused, he said "As long as you don't hug trees or worship that stupid owl I won't take a dime."
As we started on our way again mom said that the wife told her that he had just been laid off at the mill, they were cutting 75% of the workforce because the spotted owl had shut down all the logging.
I drove through that town about ten years ago. The mill is gone. The auto parts store is gone. There are vacant buildings everywhere. It is clear that every so called economic recovery has never trickled down to that town. All around the town there are trees as far as the eye can see. I kept my eyes peeled for a loud dirty old man in a beat up old truck, but he too was nowhere to be found. Just another little American town killed by the false religion of environmentalism and bad decisions made by an out of touch government.
Was the town Orick?
Hddnis: that is an excellent post.
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
I still call ******** on this whole thread. Unfortunately some good people put some good time into it. If anything someone who wants to know more about Logging should have a good read.
Still no plot...
Still no plot...
Not really. I learned there might be a place to eat at the Richie Bros. auction. Drove past it yesterday--it is on one of my routes to go shopping, and saw they still had stuff on their lot. In fact, going at 70mph by, it looked like excavators.
IF a "screenplay" is written, it will be the usual stupid stereotype with errors that are obvious to some of us, but the so called author will think she is doing a great work of art and is accurate enough. I agree with it being BS.
ArthurB
ArboristSite Member
It's also quite obviously a complete fabrication
And as others have suggested, this whole thread is at best BS
bs or not, someone asks a question it should get the best answer possible, don't care who it is or their motives, personally I've been lied too or have had the truth hidden way to many times, I'd rather not pass that torch on down.
