The Sharpened Chain (maybe)

[GrassGuerilla]

View attachment 504495 View attachment 504494 View attachment 504493 View attachment 504492 View attachment 504491 Just wanting to get some feedback on this chain, does it look sharp? are the chips chunky enough? The cutters have all been measured and filed to the same length, the rakers were filed down using a Husky file guide. Anyone know what type of chain this is, and what chain would you fellas replace this one with when the time comes? The saw is a Husqvarna 440e, cross cutting in poplar. Call me a noob looking to be set down the right (sharp) track.

Chips look pretty consistent overall. I'd say pretty darn decent for narrow kerf chain. Can't expect huge chips like 3/8 chain from .325 NK. I'd say you're well on your way down the right path. Maybe try getting pics a bit clearer of the front edge? Try having light coming from same general direction of the camera. The light will show any dull spots as a glare.

 

[SawTroll]

Is the reason for changing to a smaller file as the teeth gets shorter, so that you don't file too much of the lower gullet or part of the tie strap?

.....

I assume you meant the teeth, not the chain - so I changed it in the above quote.

The question is a good one, as the advice on forums like this is more based on experience than on "science".

No doubt the reason most often mentioned is not filing into the tie straps - but imo that really is a "bonus" effect, and not the main reason, which is that a lower cutter needs a smaller file to attain the right profile (the gullet is part of it).

One thing I don't know (because I mostly file the cutters freehand) is what happens when you use the roller guide, and then change to a smaller file. Will the result be closer to optimal (regarding file height) or will it put the (smaller) file too low?

Regardless, if you make sure that 1/5 (20%) of the file is over the edge of the cutter, the result will be fine.

 

[SawTroll]

yes, they probably do cut almost as well as a chain without low-kickback doo-dahs, but as you can see from thriftdrifter's photographs, you have to file an extra layer of steel when lowering the depth gauges. that isn't a problem for saws that live on a shelf in the garage but for a saw that works every day it's less expensive to make up a new chain and throw the old one in the box with all the others. for home owners, this might be a good chain, safer.

At least when I file rakers, it doesn't matter at all if I also file the ramp at the same time - it simply makes no difference.

Also remember that such ramps is an alternative to much larger and more ramped rakers. After Stihl discontinued the RSK, there no longer is saw chain on the market that doesn't have one or the other of those kickback reducing features - some chain even have both, like the Stihl "3" chain and some Carlton chain.

 

[heyduke]

At least when I file rakers, it doesn't matter at all if I also file the ramp at the same time - it simply makes no difference.

Also remember that such ramps is an alternative to much larger and more ramped rakers. After Stihl discontinued the RSK, there no longer is saw chain on the market that doesn't have one or the other of those kickback reducing features - some chain even have both, like the Stihl "3" chain and some Carlton chain.

maybe things are different in europe. in the usa chain without low kickback features is still easily available. i bought two lengths of it at tractor supply, a big box store, this month. you can buy it in carlton (woodlandpro), oregon and asian copies.

here's an image from the oregon website. it is 72LGX, available from many sources including baileysonline.com who would likely ship to norway.



the same style of chain, lacking ramps, bumps and fins, is available in .325, lo-pro and .404. this incredibly dangerous chain is available in full skip too. though it is nearly suicidal it is my chain of choice.

regarding filing ramps and such, "it simply makes no difference." that simply isn't true. it takes more time, often double, and it wears out files and grinding wheels.

we'd love to see some examples of your "freehand" filed chains. i'm sure your many years of experience would prove instructive to many of the tyros (like the original poster) who are trying to learn this nearly dead art. i get many hand-filed chains in my shop because they don't cut right, if at all. although i've heard the fabulous legends, it's been more than ten years since i've encountered a hand filed chain that would cut as well as a new one. (that's excepting the one that is the subject of this thread. thriftdrifter did a pretty good job.) how about some photos?

 

[Philbert]

@heyduke - fair to say that the guys with the hand-filed chains that cut good are less likely to drop them off at your shop?

Lots of ways to sharpen - everyone needs to find something that works for them.

Philbert

 

[Marshy]

I have some 62 DL chains in 0.050 and 0.063 gauge, 0.325 pitch that are still for sale. If anyone can use these chains let me know.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...y-fit-16-stihl-3005-mount-0-325-pitch.284367/

 

[heyduke]

@heyduke - fair to say that the guys with the hand-filed chains that cut good are less likely to drop them off at your shop?

Lots of ways to sharpen - everyone needs to find something that works for them.

Philbert

philbert-

i'm not trying to tell anyone how to sharpen chain. no matter what tools you use sharpening chain requires skills that have to be acquired through practice and failure. that being said, my attitude is that filing round ground chain is mostly a waste of time. a few master it but most only think they've mastered it. square ground lends itself to hand filing since you can follow that angle back from the "beak." also, if you're using your saws to put bread on the table and pay the mortgage you don't have the time to screw around with filing. you're often better off and ahead financially if you toss a dull $10 chain and install a new loop, when you're estimating at $100/hour. if you're working on a crew, no one wants to watch you sharpen a chain while they bust their asses. and if you have the energy to sharpen chains after working hard for eight hours, i'll tip my helmet to you and offer you one of my ipa's.

the other thing, a lot of the low kick back (sorry, "safety") chain isn't really meant to be sharpened. once you need to lower the depth gauges things slow down, both in sharpening and cutting. i refuse to sharpen most of those chains and offer, instead, a fresh loop of professional oregon or carlton which i can produce at half the price of the local stihl shop. and you get a chain that cuts a little better and a smile on your face. by the way, who's to say you still have any low-kickback functionality after you've ground on the bumps and ramps.

lastly, thriftdrifter posted pictures of his work, bravo! everyone else is offering sage, expert advise but i'm not seeing anything to back up their words. you post pictures of your work often. thank you. i don't have a problem with posting photos and vids that show why my chains make fat corn flakes, not smoke.

 

[Philbert]

No offense taken, and I hope it's mutual. I respect your experience and opinions, and look forward to different points of view in these threads.

My 'main' way of sharpening is to take several chains per saw, swap them out in the field, and sharpen them back home on a 511 type grinder. Same grinder I use when I have a bunch of other people's loops to sharpen - it's just faster, and I get consistent angles, cutter lengths, etc. Sometimes, I 'touch up' with a file in the field, but it takes a bit of forethought/understanding of subtle differences to be able to go back and forth between methods / tools.

I have enjoyed 'playing'/experimenting with a variety of grinders, file guides, rotary tools, etc. to sharpen chains, and believe that almost any of the more common ones can be used to make an acceptably cutting chain ***if the person using it understands how it works, and what they want the finished cutters to look like ***. I am convinced that people can also completely ruin, new-out-of-the-box loops with any of these tools or methods, if they have no idea of what they are doing! So, if someone has a method that works for them (any method), that is great - I don't care what it is (although, I might be interested, just out of curiosity).

I agree that there are a lot of guys who think that they are better at a lot of things than they objectively are - my earlier comments were meant to say that those who really are good with free-hand filing probably don't bring their chains in for someone else to sharpen. I have seen a lot of the 'other guys' chains - with random length cutters, and random angles. Often, with Left and Right cutters looking like they belong to different chains.

I have noted in some of these discussions a difference in the definition of 'sharpening' that has led to confusion. Some guys 'touch up' each cutter with one or two file passes each time they fill the tank with fuel - essentially 'maintaining a sharp edge'. Other guys wait until the front and back of the cutter look the same, then have to take off a lot of metal to restore it. Can't really compare these as 'the same thing'. I disagree with your comment "filing round ground chain is mostly a waste of time". I do not see this with touch up filing, which takes just a few minutes, or even with more extensive filing, using some type of file guide or jig (5 or 6 strokes?) to keep things accurate and consistent. For rocked chains, a full-sized grinder rules. If you work in the production environment you describe, swapping chains might be a better choice, although, I would still toss them into a box, and sharpen them on a rain day, pay someone to sharpen them, or put them on eBay or CL as 'once used chains' (which some people do).

I also have to disagree with the comment "low kick back . . . chain isn't really meant to be sharpened". The cutting speed may be objectively slower in some situations, but it is not practically noticeable for many users, where actual cutting comprises only a limited portion of their work time, once handling of the wood, etc. is figured in. Especially when cutting smaller diameter wood (16 - 18" diameter or less) where chip clearance is not an issue. The tie strap bumpers (OP's chain) are more obtrusive in this way than the drive link style bumpers, which have largely replaced them in most situations. I have sharpened both of these types down to end-of-life conditions, where they cut acceptably for me. I have also received and reconditioned a bunch of these chains after provoking people to send them to me, instead of throwing them out!

I like pictures too, although, it takes a pretty high quality photo to diagnose a chain over the Internet.

Philbert

 

[KiwiBro]

How about someone send the OP a loop they have sharpened and see if they can tell much of a difference when looking at and running the two? Would be a great learning opportunity to discuss the differences and why after they have run the sent loop.

 

[The Thriftdrifter]

How about someone send the OP a loop they have sharpened and see if they can tell much of a difference when looking at and running the two?

You volunteering Kiwibro? You are the closest! By the way, where do you buy your chains? Who has the best prices down this way.

I assume you meant the teeth, not the chain - so I changed it in the above quote.

Yes thanks SawTroll, teeth was the intended word.

I'll try to get some better photos soon.

 

[KiwiBro]

Howzit bro? Didn't realise you're a fellow sheep-shagger. I thought you were another crazy chainsaw yankee. I don't have any .325 chain as my small saw uses 3/8LP. As for best small bar/chain deals, if I could find a great Stihl picco chain deal I'd jump on it but sadly it's priced like it's made from gold. Some guys don't like Oregon's 91VXL 3/8LP chain but that's what I'm using a bit of lately and like it for the price and that comes from left coast supplies in USA. There's a few places in Oz for deals from time to time and I could also use some more Kiwi back-up in the aussie dribble thread if you are keen: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-all-aussie-dribble-thread.175005/

I make no claim to being a chain sharpening guru. I'm still experimenting but dailing it in for different woods and uses. If you want to send me a loop of your chain, I'll have at it and send it back to you to try. Just PM me your details and we'll get it done.

 

[SawTroll]

maybe things are different in europe. in the usa chain without low kickback features is still easily available. i bought two lengths of it at tractor supply, a big box store, this month. you can buy it in carlton (woodlandpro), oregon and asian copies.

here's an image from the oregon website. it is 72LGX, available from many sources including baileysonline.com who would likely ship to norway.

View attachment 504897

the same style of chain, lacking ramps, bumps and fins, is available in .325, lo-pro and .404. this incredibly dangerous chain is available in full skip too. though it is nearly suicidal it is my chain of choice.

.....

The LGX does have the large ramped rakers I referred to, and so does the Stihl and Carlton/Woodlandpro options. They are right there, in your illustration. There isn't much difference between chain offered in Europe vs. the US, at least not from Oregon, Stihl and Carlton.
Which more marginal brands are available may vary though.

 

[SawTroll]

....

regarding filing ramps and such, "it simply makes no difference." that simply isn't true. it takes more time, often double, and it wears out files and grinding wheels.

.....

I totally disagree when it comes to the small Oregon ramps (which was the original topic) - but can't comment on Stihl and Carlton, that use much larger ramps in addition the large ramped rakers, not instead of.

For the sake of accuracy, I am talking about filing with relatively fresh 8" raker files, not about worn files or 6" files (and certainly not grinders).

I also touch up the cutters every tank or two, and don't wait until it feels dull.

 

[heyduke]

The LGX does have the large ramped rakers I referred to, and so does the Stihl and Carlton/Woodlandpro options. They are right there, in your illustration. There isn't much difference between chain offered in Europe vs. the US, at least not from Oregon, Stihl and Carlton.
Which more marginal brands are available may vary though.

by rakers, i assume you mean depth gauges. the depth gauges on the oregon chain that i used for an example does not have any extraordinary anti-kickback features. they are nicely sloped to keep the cutter from tipping and digging in but that's a pretty normal looking depth gauge. there are no ramps on the ties, no bumps on the drive links. when you lower the depth gauges you file only one piece of steel less than a millimeter thick. and i can tell you from experience that this chain will cut very well, just plain, vanilla, professional chain available from any shop that sells oregon chain. here it is again:

below, a typical safety, low-kick back chain. it's similar in concept to the chain cited by the original poster. oregon classifies it as "professional chain." it uses a bump on the top of the drive link which has to be filed or ground away as the cutter wears. it is at least as thick as the depth gauge and doubles the work that has to be done. in my experience these chains do not cut as well and they are heavier:

next is a typical homeowner type low kickback chain. it won't cut very well when it's new and after a few sharpenings it's useless. it uses "fins" on the ties that are a challenge to lower and shape:

of the three above i would use only the first for arborist activities and use the other two for reinforcing cement. they work well for that.


last is oregon's new safety chain. it claims "Unique patented bent over depth gauges provide smooth cutting and ANSI Certified low-kickback performance." this chain is obviously not meant to be sharpened since after lowering the depth gauges a few times the "folded over" part would be filed away and no longer effective as a low kick back feature. however, of the three low kick back type chains, this is the only one that i could work with. the depth gauges can be lowered and shaped with great accuracy using a 511 grinder and 1/4" wheel. want to file the depth gauges? be ready for a marthon. it's also ok for reinforcing cement:

troll, i'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to insert some clarity and common sense. this isn't religion or politics. its just trying to make a buck or get some winter heat. you like to use overly complex chain and enjoy scratching at it with a file, that's great. but i don't need it.

 

[The Thriftdrifter]

Love the photos and explanations of the different depth gauge/raker/ramp styles on differing chain types Heyduke

Thanks for the offer KiwiBro, I'll be sure to have a look at the-all-aussie-c**ksucker-thread

You are right about Stihl products being pricy over here!

It cracks me up how passionate y'all are in your discussions regarding things chainsaw, I think it's great, where else can one get such an in-depth, varied and well debated education on such matters.

Worth more than a gold plated Stihl chain.

 

[KiwiBro]

they are good buggers in the dribble thread mate. Some of the best on this forum.

 

[The Thriftdrifter]

Yer the Aussies are a good bunch, mind you I have to say that, the missus is one.

 

[Philbert]

last is oregon's new safety chain. . .

The Oregon 'Vanguard' model chain has been around a while, and the unique depth gauge shape is confusing to many. I have little to none experience cutting with it.

next is a typical homeowner type low kickback chain. . .

The shape of these tie-strap bumper can vary quite a bit, with the old Carton style actually adopted by Tri-Link on some of their current chain (cutter facing 'wrong' direction may be ominous?):

These features do add weight to the chain, but is not an issue that I notice in my cutting. What I find of interest is that Oregon claims that the bumper tie straps (like those you show) were originally designed to make chains cut smoother on smaller wood, by smoothing out the bumps. The reduced kickback benefits were discovered later. Some folks still like these bumpers (e.g. Oregon chains marked 'VG') on pole saws, due to small diameter wood being cut at the end of a long pole.

More modern bumper drive links have less of a 'ramp', so there is less added weight, and less interference with chip clearance. An example of that would be Oregon chain with a 'PX' designation, and some similar STIHL chains (e.g. 95VPX) - you would still have more metal to remove when filing or grinding the depth gauges:


The 'PX' style chains are my preferred reduced kickback design. Although, to meet the ANSI standard, the chains have to pass performance tests. That is why the new Oregon 95TXL has those style bumpers but does not meet the designation as a 'low kickback chain'. Product managers say that they still reduce the likelihood of kickback, but not enough to pass the test.

I am not offended if anyone wants to use 'yellow chain', or 'non-safety chain', etc. My comments are mostly offered to those who have or use reduced kickback chains, and are having trouble sharpening them.

Philbert

 

[heyduke]

The Oregon 'Vanguard' model chain has been around a while, and the unique depth gauge shape is confusing to many. I have little to none experience cutting with it. ... ...I am not offended if anyone wants to use 'yellow chain', or 'non-safety chain', etc. My comments are mostly offered to those who have or use reduced kickback chains, and are having trouble sharpening them.

Philbert

philbert-

thanks for the input. you really have superior knowledge of arcane varieties of chain. i only use threes sizes: .404, .375 and lo-pro, and only agonize over full comp or skip. as i said above, chain that looks like a '57 packard is possibly a better choice for some homeowners, particularly those who keep their saw on a shelf in the garage until a tree blows down in a winter storm. they are not skilled operators. i suppose, too, that that sort of chain might appeal to a few orchard men who use their saw to do their annual pruning. they might appreciate the slower pace while precariously balanced atop an orchard ladder. also, as you seemed to state, there are a lot of hombres who don't notice that their chains are dull or slow due to their design. i agree. however, the operator who values his time and sweat requires the fastest cutting chain (within good engineering limits) possible. you have to get the truck loaded, the brush chipped and everything cleaned up with rake and blower and move on to the next job. although i carry a couple of extra 72dl's in my tool bag i seldom use them. i just grab a back-up saw. you lose style points if you have to work on a saw on the job. anyway, i've only tried to keep this thread relevant and accurate for thriftdrifter who asked for advice regarding sharpening. you're welcome to stop by the shop any time for an ice cold local craft beer and you're welcome to take my bucket of ramped, bumpy and finned chains.

 

[SawTroll]

....
below, a typical safety, low-kick back chain. it's similar in concept to the chain cited by the original poster. oregon classifies it as "professional chain." it uses a bump on the top of the drive link which has to be filed or ground away as the cutter wears. it is at least as thick as the depth gauge and doubles the work that has to be done. in my experience these chains do not cut as well and they are heavier:

....

This is a misunderstanding, that sadly is all too common.

What decides if a chain with a ramp on the drivers is "yellow" or "green" is the actual performance (kickback reduction) in wood (ANSI testing), as with all other chain. There is a wide variety of cutter/raker/ramp designs out there, and mainly it is the size and shape of the rakers and ramps that decide the outcome.

I am fairly sure that the one in the picture is "yellow", likely it is Oregon 72DP - that is an excellent performing semi-chisel chain.

VPX (that this really is about) and BPX have slightly larger and more ramped rakers, and qualify as "green" - but they still are much less "green" than the Stihl "3" chain and the Carlton variety (now discontiued?), that have much larger and more ramped rakers + much larger ramps.