Two chainsaws or one for farm/ranch?

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Fishin' Rod

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I need some chainsaw advice that is above my pay-grade (moderate homeowner level).

Basically, what is the relationship between power (engine displacement) and tree diameter for optimum cutting?

I know I can take down a 30" tree using a cheap box store chainsaw with a 14" bar - but it is going to "waste" a lot of time doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, it is stupid to save XXX dollars buying a smaller saw and then adding tens to hundreds of extra man-hours in labor over the life of the saw. On the other hand, I do not want to be lugging around way more chainsaw than I need for 90-95% of my cutting jobs.

I expect to do much more felling than bucking. I think I want the lightest possible saw that still has enough power to not slow down going through 8-12" trees. Is that covered by a 30cc Stihl or Echo at the very bottom of their power line? Do I need 40cc, or even more?

This leads to an even bigger question (for those of us on tight budgets). How wide of a range of cutting jobs do you expect to cover with a single saw, before you could clearly justify spending the additional money for a second saw based on your savings in effort and labor hours?


Background
I am shopping for a new chainsaw, and am definitely not experienced enough to know where to trade off power versus weight versus money versus convenience features. Hoping I could get some good information from the commentators here!

I am trying to keep up with an old 300 acre farm, but we live 45 minutes away. The farmer-tenant takes care of 100 acres of wheat and 170 acres of native grass. The balance is "forest", waterways, and a nice creek. The main portion of the "forest" is a shelter belt that is about 100' wide and a 1/2 mile long. (I am pretty sure this was a depression-era works project.) Overall, I have about 10 acres of dense trees to manage and 13 acres of moderate tree density to control and thin.

Unfortunately, there were lots of Siberian Elms in the shelter belt planting, and they are invasive on the parts of the farm that are not regularly tilled or mowed. I also have an infestation of Honey Locust trees migrating down a waterway. (These are nasty trees, because the thorns on the lower branches prevent you from even reaching the trunk with your chainsaw.)

I own a Husqvarna 345FR Brush Cutter with an 8" scarlett blade. I have taken out almost a thousand trees with the brush cutter - from twigs to almost 4 inches. Unfortunately, I still have several thousand more trees to cut in this range. [I may be able to add a chainsaw style blade (Beaver Blade) and cut larger trees, but I don't think I could get over 5" - unless somebody has some good brush cutter ideas.]

The next step on the farm is to start removing the undesirable trees that are above 4". Most are still under 12", but everything that is not a cedar needs poison sprayed on the cut stump. I think this will be my largest "chainsaw job", and leads to my first question.

Question #1
What is the best saw recommendation for bending down or kneeling to cut small trees just above ground level - then putting the saw down after every 10 trees to pick up the sprayer and poison the stumps? (52 y.o. man - used to be a decent athlete, but partly "gone to seed" now.) I will have a lot of walking with all of my gear in this "mode". Either through the pasture to the various clumps of invasive trees, or through the old shelter belt where I have to step over lots of downed branches and trees.

If the experts agree that I would be much happier with a small saw for this work, then that leads to the second question.

Question #2
When you step up to a second saw, how big is the "size gap" to your first saw? Or do you just shell out the bucks for the biggest saw you can afford that will be able to accomplish the biggest job you expect to have? [Alternatively for the commentators that own dozens of saws - which two saws do you use the most?]

Once we have figured out the proper size of the saw(s), then the question becomes what grade of saw? I am not sure I will ever put enough hours on a "homeowner" grade saw to wear it out if I purchase from a quality manufacturer. However, since I have to drive 45 minutes each way to work on the farm, I usually try to put in a full day of work. If I can get a lot more work done with a "farm/ranch" grade saw, or even a "professional" grade saw, before I wear out my back or arms, then that is the best bang for the buck.

Question #3
What grade of saw do you consider to be the best "value" for a non-daily user? "Homeowner", "Farm/Ranch", or "Professional"?

I am so far in debt right now, that the "price" doesn't matter all that much. I just need the best "value" possible. If spending the extra bucks for professional grade yields (for example) a much better power-to-weight ratio, and better vibration control, then I may be able to cut a few extra trees every work-day and justify the extra initial expense.

I apologize for the long post, but there are lots of very knowledgeable people in this forum that are capable of very informative answers if they know all of the details.

Thanks in advance, for any of you who choose to respond.

Rod
 
Find a used 346xp or 026/260 in good condition. That should be a perfect saw for thinning and about the same price as a new "farm and ranch" saw that will weigh more and have less power.

If you think you need more saw, a 70cc is a good option for larger trees. You can run a 24 or 28" bar on one. Most offerings are going to be pro grade at that displacement so again buying used will be easier on your budget.
 
Now for a few questions. What dealers are near you? Stihl, Husqvarna, Echo not box store. Do you know what saws are used around you? Others will offer suggestions. I'm mostly familiar with Stihl and they have large dealer network. I'd suggest the Stihl MS 250 16". On sale for $300 but call around to confirm they have one. The Stihl MS 271 16" is in their farm ranch line about $375. Same basic construction but with spring antivibe. Regardless of what you buy, buy chainsaw chaps and protective gear. Also several extra chains so always use sharp chain. Learn safe operation. Stihl and Husqvarna have good videos. Depending on how much you're cutting, premixed can fuel like Motomix or Trufuel is good but pricy.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
 
IMO, it's more about how much wood you cut. If you are cutting 10+ cords a year a back-up saw is nice to have. Also I can't be overly selective on what I cut either. I can do most everything with my ms290, but the ms461 tackles the really big stuff, can save a pinched 290, and although is heavy is great for fast bucking of a large log (20 to 30 cuts) that is lying in the road.

If you are only going to cut 2 to 4 cords a year, one saw a 50cc will likely do it all for you.
 
Get a pro-grade 50cc saw and two bars - a short 13" for your stump/herbicide tasks, and a 18" for bigger work - and see where that gets you. I think you will find that combination to be very, very versatile; anything that this setup won't do will call for an 80cc+ machine, which can be your next purchase if it comes to that. Your dealer likely won't have the 13" bars in stock so you will want to source that off the interwebs.

Stihl 261 or Husqvarna 550xp would be my choices.

I do a ton of invasive removal - cut, treat stump, repeat - and the 50cc/13" setup lets me get a really low stump without the downside of a longer bar that will invariably touch dirt or debris and dull the chain. I highly recommend giving the short bar a try for that sort of work.
 
I cut alot of wood a year I have a 193 for my limbing saw. A ms290 wearing a 20" bar that I use most of the time to fell and buck up logs and I also have a ms391 wearing a 25" bar that I use for the bigger logs. I started out with one saw only and soon realized I needed another Incase I got into stick situations as far as getting a bar stuck. All my saws are farm and ranch saws and have served me extremely well as long as you take care of them. My 193t is a 30cc saw, 290 is a 55cc saw and the 391 is a 64cc saw. All three saws serve me well. In your situation if your looking at just one saw I'd go with a 291 with an 18 or 20 inch bar. Or if you want two saws then I'd go with the 271 with a 16-18 inch bar and the 391 with a 20-25 inch bar.
 
Or if you want two saws then I'd go with the 271 with a 16-18 inch bar and the 391 with a 20-25 inch bar.

Before my 461, my second saw has a Husky 460. A great saw but it was only a slight upgrade to the 290. If you get two make sure they have different capabilities. A single saw can get itself unpinched, by removing the powerhead and slapping on a new B&C, so a back up saw in the same class doesn't really save your primary nor expand your cutting capabilities. 50cc and under for one, and for the second a 70cc and above.
 
I personally do what you are talking about doing, with my father-in-law on his 50+ acre farm. I have a 029 farm boss that has been upgraded with a 039/390 piston and cylinder. I also have a stihl 020AV and a craftsman 2.0/Poulan 2000 that I use out there as well. The big stihl runs either a 16" or 20" bar. The small the saws both have 14" bars. For limbing and small diameter trees, I use one of the two smaller saws. For anything bigger, I use the farm boss. My FIL also has a Stihl MS290 and says that is all he needs most of the time. He is looking for a smaller saw that he can one hand limb trees in the air, around his fields. If you want a one saw plan, I would personally find either a used 029/290 and have both a 16" and 20" bar for it. Or get a new ms271. My father has the 271 with a 16" on it and it runs great. It will pull a 20" no problems. Ran my 20" on it in oak. The 020AV I purchased because I wanted a second smaller saw and I got it cheap on ebay, knowing it had issues. A carb rebuild and it was the good to go. The craftsman/poulan was given to me and basically needed a rebuild. It is running great now. That is just my experience and .02.
 
I would go with the Stihl 029/290 or 039/390 line of saws. I have had two and have not been dissapointed. They work hard year round, have cheap replacement parts, easy to work on and have a lower up front cost. My 039 wore a 20 inch bar all of the time, except where i temporarily needed a 24. If I was you, for what your going to be using the saw for, I would chose an MS390 and buy a back up bar and chain in case you get the bar pinched and can not get it out. The Husqvarna rancher line of saws are good too.

If you are planning on a single saw, I would not go lower than 60cc. There is no need for a professional series saw for what you plan on doing, the extra money saved should go to more important items, or spent on a good case or fourwheeler mount, maintenance items, extra bar and chain....etc. But this of cource is because money is tight around my place and I couldnt afford a 2 saw set at the time. (a 70cc or larger saw and a 30 cc limbing saw is a great set if you can swing the cash, (hell, a Stihl MS390 and a 30cc limbing saw is a great combo))
 
I need some chainsaw advice that is above my pay-grade (moderate homeowner level).

Basically, what is the relationship between power (engine displacement) and tree diameter for optimum cutting?

I know I can take down a 30" tree using a cheap box store chainsaw with a 14" bar - but it is going to "waste" a lot of time doing it the wrong way. In my opinion, it is stupid to save XXX dollars buying a smaller saw and then adding tens to hundreds of extra man-hours in labor over the life of the saw. On the other hand, I do not want to be lugging around way more chainsaw than I need for 90-95% of my cutting jobs.

I expect to do much more felling than bucking. I think I want the lightest possible saw that still has enough power to not slow down going through 8-12" trees. Is that covered by a 30cc Stihl or Echo at the very bottom of their power line? Do I need 40cc, or even more?

This leads to an even bigger question (for those of us on tight budgets). How wide of a range of cutting jobs do you expect to cover with a single saw, before you could clearly justify spending the additional money for a second saw based on your savings in effort and labor hours?


Background
I am shopping for a new chainsaw, and am definitely not experienced enough to know where to trade off power versus weight versus money versus convenience features. Hoping I could get some good information from the commentators here!

I am trying to keep up with an old 300 acre farm, but we live 45 minutes away. The farmer-tenant takes care of 100 acres of wheat and 170 acres of native grass. The balance is "forest", waterways, and a nice creek. The main portion of the "forest" is a shelter belt that is about 100' wide and a 1/2 mile long. (I am pretty sure this was a depression-era works project.) Overall, I have about 10 acres of dense trees to manage and 13 acres of moderate tree density to control and thin.

Unfortunately, there were lots of Siberian Elms in the shelter belt planting, and they are invasive on the parts of the farm that are not regularly tilled or mowed. I also have an infestation of Honey Locust trees migrating down a waterway. (These are nasty trees, because the thorns on the lower branches prevent you from even reaching the trunk with your chainsaw.)

I own a Husqvarna 345FR Brush Cutter with an 8" scarlett blade. I have taken out almost a thousand trees with the brush cutter - from twigs to almost 4 inches. Unfortunately, I still have several thousand more trees to cut in this range. [I may be able to add a chainsaw style blade (Beaver Blade) and cut larger trees, but I don't think I could get over 5" - unless somebody has some good brush cutter ideas.]

The next step on the farm is to start removing the undesirable trees that are above 4". Most are still under 12", but everything that is not a cedar needs poison sprayed on the cut stump. I think this will be my largest "chainsaw job", and leads to my first question.

Question #1
What is the best saw recommendation for bending down or kneeling to cut small trees just above ground level - then putting the saw down after every 10 trees to pick up the sprayer and poison the stumps? (52 y.o. man - used to be a decent athlete, but partly "gone to seed" now.) I will have a lot of walking with all of my gear in this "mode". Either through the pasture to the various clumps of invasive trees, or through the old shelter belt where I have to step over lots of downed branches and trees.

If the experts agree that I would be much happier with a small saw for this work, then that leads to the second question.

Question #2
When you step up to a second saw, how big is the "size gap" to your first saw? Or do you just shell out the bucks for the biggest saw you can afford that will be able to accomplish the biggest job you expect to have? [Alternatively for the commentators that own dozens of saws - which two saws do you use the most?]

Once we have figured out the proper size of the saw(s), then the question becomes what grade of saw? I am not sure I will ever put enough hours on a "homeowner" grade saw to wear it out if I purchase from a quality manufacturer. However, since I have to drive 45 minutes each way to work on the farm, I usually try to put in a full day of work. If I can get a lot more work done with a "farm/ranch" grade saw, or even a "professional" grade saw, before I wear out my back or arms, then that is the best bang for the buck.

Question #3
What grade of saw do you consider to be the best "value" for a non-daily user? "Homeowner", "Farm/Ranch", or "Professional"?

I am so far in debt right now, that the "price" doesn't matter all that much. I just need the best "value" possible. If spending the extra bucks for professional grade yields (for example) a much better power-to-weight ratio, and better vibration control, then I may be able to cut a few extra trees every work-day and justify the extra initial expense.

I apologize for the long post, but there are lots of very knowledgeable people in this forum that are capable of very informative answers if they know all of the details.

Thanks in advance, for any of you who choose to respond.

Rod

You certainly came to the right place to drop a series of questions like that!!! Of course the answer to everyone of them is the same..."it depends".....and there are more than a few here that can clear that up...:) Happen to have a 270 acre farm and live right on it. We heat with wood...totally. Use chainsaws daily in the late summer / fall time frame, sell logs for taxes if cow prices are down and have endless maintenance around trials fence lines etc. where saws are a part of life. SO so much work related...years ago I turned it into a hobby. And a few years ago build a youtube channel to document the chainsaw experience with my buds and family. It grew more than expected and I spent a ton of time exploring and working around the questions you are asking.

Suggestions?? One saw plan....a pro level 60/70cc saw from a good major brand where you get along with the dealer.
Two saw plan, a pro level 50cc saw and a 80/90cc saw from the name brands where you have a dealer you trust.

I have a three saw plan...and a pile in the retirement home of projects I built, used, got bored and put away for yet another project.

for the last few years, an Origional Edition Husqvarna 372 derivative has always been in the work cycle some where. I'm not a huge fan of the new X-torq's but have learned to build them to where I like them. STILL don't have any in the work rotation though,

This past year a modified Husqvarna 562xp has filled that spot the 372 derivatives had for years.

My small saw has been some variant of a modified 350 built to 346xp top end specs. This year I gave two away and retired the other ones and have an old Husqvarna 254xp built by me with a Sugihara 16 inch B&C.

In the past I have had just a huge variety of vintage iron for the big saws but now have settled on my Chinese and OEM Sthil MS660's (Have 4 right now in various stages of tunes and mods) or my built 385/390 Husqvarna's. Have more fun with the MS660's as I can hack and slash at the cylinders with virtually no financial risk. They get the most use as they make a lot of power for dollars spent once de-bugged. I would not recommend that route for someone not willing to tinker and fabricate solutions when encountered for that matter 90 percent shouldn't go there and 50 percent of those who think they have the skills shouldn't either. But the true OEM Stihl MS660 is a great saw. So is the Husqvarna 390xp's. I happen to prefer the OEM Stihl MS660/066 over just about any option at this point because I've had a lot of fun building them and once built they are great old simple saws. A 562, 254 and two MS660's, (One OEM one AM) ride in my pickup now full time. So I guess thats a four saw plan...:) The Husqvarna 254 and AM 100cc MS660 get the most use now BTW, at least this last few months.

Oh...last but not least..."Saw on the tractor". I always have a general purpose saw riding on the tractor as you never know what you see and have to address. For years is was a Husqvarna 455, now its either the 562 or a 555.
 
Welcome friend! I know everyone different but I use my 261 a lot on the farm & use my 250 for fencing. A 026/260 is an awesome lil saw that won't wear you out & are easy to find. Just my two cents. Any of the xp huskys are great to. One thing to keep in mind is where is your closest dealer & what brand do they carry.
 
I have 100 acres of mature and young forest and heat exclusively with scrounged wood from the property. I also maintain about 5km of trails. I have used the same 50cc saw for the last 25 years with a 15" bar. Sometimes doing light trail work, I wish I had a smaller / lighter saw, but even spending all day doing ground level clearing, the 50cc saw is light enough not to kill my back. Never have I run into a situation I couldn't handle with the 50cc / 15" combo. I recently acquired an MS290 (friendly trade) and my son has a 562XP, both with 20" bars. For bucking logs on a pile, both are superior saws, but for trail work and felling / clearing I always pick up my 50cc saw. ( I also have a clearing saw - which is used for 2" and below)

When selecting a saw - choose one that is best suited for what you will be doing 80% of the time. For your situation, trees mostly under 12", lots of ground level work, lots of bending and straightening, lots of starting and stopping, I recommend a 40-50cc saw with a 15/16" bar. Big enough to get the job done, small enough not to wear you out. Based on what you describe, you have no need for anything bigger.

I suggest a farm / ranch level model from a reputable dealer or a pro model if you can get a good deal. I don't think you really need the pro version for what you are proposing and the difference will NOT enable you "to cut a few extra trees every work-day". Personally - I see a chainsaw as a long term investment, so I stay away from the homeowner / starter versions - not that there are not good ones out there - but you have lots of work to do - keeping a chainsaw running shouldn't be part of it.

For cutting just above ground level work - choose semi-chisel over full chisel. It may cut a bit slower, but it will hold it's edge longer.
 
Thanks for all of the input. Tons of good ideas and lots of agreement.

I have plenty of local dealers nearby. Yesterday, I went to a dealer that is authorized for Stihl, Husqvarna, and Echo. (Stihl is his biggest line.) He was very helpful on every question I asked - but there were just so many trade-offs between sizes and brands. I knew I didn't have enough experience to ask the right questions. So I came here!

I normally like the idea of going higher up the price line and then purchasing the item used to get back within the budget. However, on items where I am a newbie I never manage to get the deals like the "You Suck" threads. I am far more likely to do the opposite and purchase a "doorstop". I haven't seen any of my local dealers selling used chainsaws - where they would back it up. Any places (other than local) that you guys would suggest to be acceptable for a used chainsaw?
 
The consensus seems to be to start with a good saw in the 50-60 cc range. Supplement that with the longest bar and shortest bar that are recommended for the model to give you some flexibility since you are going to buy multiple chains anyway.

Looking at the Stihl specs for professional saws, every saw larger than the MS 241 has a 16" bar minimum. Quick question - is it safe to use a smaller bar than recommended? 1.) Operator safety first - I would only use the smaller bar on small trees, but would it increase my likelihood of kickback etc.? 2.) Machine maintenance safety second, can I redline my saw and ruin it (or something similarly stupid) with a bar that is too small?

The dealer does have the Echo CS-590 on sale for $360. I believe the Stihl equivalent would be the MS 311 ($490 16" or $500 18-20" bar). Which would the commentators prefer between those two, or the equivalent Husqvarna?

Thanks,
Rod
 
Stihl especially tends to market the longest bar possible on their saws. You may be able to get a saw changed out with a shorter bar...typically in the states 14-16" is considered a short bar for a 40-50cc saw. It's not really a safety or reliability concern, although you could argue that short bars have a bit more kickback potential. Definitely suit the bar(s) and chains to the work you'll be doing.

I would take the CS590 over the MS311 any day. Magnesium "pro quality" case vs. plastic clamshell design. Echo saws are also dead solid reliable. Either is a bit big for a thinning saw though...they are more of a bucking saw.

As far as used saws go, the trading post here on the site is a great place to aquire saws. Most of the members here are knowledgeable about them and take care of them...the same can't be said for a lot of people out there. Many sellers will take pics of the piston and/or take compression readings. So you know what you are getting for the most part.
 
Personally, I'd stick with a 14"-16" bar and just have the 1 bar with 2 chains. Nothing you mentioned suggests you will need more than 16" of bar. Even bucking logs off the truck 16" covers everything I need for 98% of my wood.

Going shorter than 14" doesn't really buy you anything unless you undersized on the power head.

You can always buy a longer bar later if you find you have a need.
 
Despite my "War And Peace" length initial post, I still didn't cover all of my chainsaw needs. I mostly concentrated on the "small" chainsaw tasks first.

My most likely chore for a "big" chainsaw is related to all of the 80+ year-old Siberian Elms on the property. Many have died and fallen across fence lines etc. The small branches shattered, but the main branches are old, bleached wood. I can only imagine how hard that crap will be to cut. (I just need to get it small enough to tractor skid to the burn pile.)

I also need to fell the live (but dying elms) while they are still solid enough to come down in one piece. The biggest problem is the snags that are dead and still standing. I wanted to take some pictures and measurements of those, and then post to the site for advice. Which forum is appropriate for felling/safety questions?
 
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