Ugly fences make bad neighbors

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cmontana

ArboristSite Lurker
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Location
Rochester, NY
An adjacent neighbor recently erected about 80 feet of 6 foot tall alternating slat fencing between our yards. Ordinarily I'm not one to complain about another person's need for privacy but the fence (the only one in the neighborhood) is completely out place in our park-like neighborhood and my wife is pitching a fit over it. Our house is built at an angle to the road and thus our living room picture window now has a wonder full view of the fencing.

I need to camoflage the fence quickly before my wife's head explodes! I'm thinking maybe a hedge row of Hemlocks. I have planted one or two before to screen off part of our yard. They seem to grow together nicely and have a very soft look to them. My concern is that they don't grow really fast and it's almost impossible to find anything over 4 feet tall in a nursery in western New York.

My one requirement is that the planting can be easily trimmed - I can't afford to lose a lot of turf. I want something tall and shallow that grows together for a 'wall of green'. Has to stay green in the winter too.

Anyone have any ideas?
 
For starters, *definitely get a survey -- it'll cost, but you do not want title problems at settlement, especially if you are on a typical subdivision lot. Get the survey before time slips by, and your wife's screening hedge hinders the ability of a surveyor to accurately locate the posts.

Here's how it works ... neighbor X (aggressive and uncooperative, as proven already, by building a line fence, this high no less, without consulting you and going in with you on the survey *required to accurately locate an expensive new fence) builds a fence one d4mn lousy foot inside your property line, meaning that you now have possession of say 124-feet of your platted 125-foot lot (for example).

15 years go by (time depends on state, NY is 10 yrs, VA 15 yrs, etc. and then your neighbor gets a survey to fix the date of possession and the location of his possession -- but as a sign of his aggressive cruelty, he does not file a suit to "quiet title" in his favor. Indeed, he may not have met (or he *may have met -- irrelevant) all the legal conditions to have successfully adverse possessed you. He just sits there.

Meanwhile, you are sucked into cooperating with him. First, you acknowledge the existence of the fence, and you build a visual screen which honors the fence and etc.

Then time goes by, and you need to sell your home, and its 125-foot lot. In your contract for purchase and sale, you will basically agree to show up at the settlement table with "marketable title" on a house on a 125-feet of lot in Subdivision Happy Acres, or whatever.

Your purchaser will need a survey, to see if there are any encroachments and etc. and the survey will show the old fence, and that you have clear title (possession) on 124-feet, and that you have a "title problem" on 1-foot, which on rural property is insignificant, but on a platted subdivision lot, defnintely is not. (0.2' fence encroachment may not be significant-- today--but do not think that adverse possession is a thing out of the past, or that is doesn't pertain as a *legal device* for trouble making on suburban lots.

Settlement date arrives, and you and the purchaser appear at the settlement table. The purchaser is ready with the cash, so he's all set, but ... he then demands that you make good on your end of the purchase and sale agreement. "You promised in our agreement for sale, to deliver clear and marketable title on 125 feet of lot width. My survey here says you are delivering clear and marketable title on only 124-feet. I demand that you make good on your contract, and get a quit claim deed from your neighbor, clearing up title on the 1 foot strip." Your wife freaks --- "You mean we have to get our neighbor's signature on a quit claim deed, in order to clear up a title problem on our 125-foot lot?" The purchaser may not be a heavy hitter, with a flock of lawyers on his payrole. But, the purchaser may also be working with your aggressive neighbor, to shake you out, since you may not have the cold cash needed to feed lawyers and defend yourself in a lengthy suit for specific performance, or you may not have legal standing, to file your own suit to quiet title on the adverse possessed area, and get your lot legally replatted down to 124 feet so you can sell clear title on the remaining 124 feet.

In effect, you are basically about to be "shaken out" of your property. It would not be the first time this has happened.

By confiscating only 1-foot on your property, and by not filing suit to quite title in his favor, your neighbor has just effectively confiscated your ability to contract to deliver clear title at a settlement table for the entirety of your 125-foot lot.

Seems unfair ... not really. The banks expect, and the courts want, land owners to defend the title their own land, including 125 foot lots.

Your neighbor's fence should be "setback" onto his side of the property line, enough that he can maintain both sides of the fence, without encroaching onto your "quiet enjoyment" of your property. Typically, the outside of the fencing posts should be set 0.25'-0.33' (3"-4") back from the property line, and the fencing barrier, e.g. the wire fabric, wood slats, chainlink, etc., projects out 1" or so. On a 4x4 post, this puts the center of the post at 1/2-foot back from the PL.

Ask your surveyor "tabluate each fence post" on his survey. That is, before you screen it off, he should locate the outside-midpoint of *each fence post, and create a table of "down and overs" for the fence. (11.56' down from the front NE corner, over +0.25' -- + being on your neighbor.) His survey should not just depict a fence, x--x--x, "somewhere" along the PL, with a few random "offsets" shown.

Not fun. Serious business ...

P.S. also, don't put up such heavy screening, that in 10 years time, the neighbor can move the fence when you are on vacation, without your knowing it. One of the neighbors tried to do that to my parents, and I had to wait until they went on vacation to put it back ... and had to remove all the screening to do it. That's another war story.
 
Some type of Arborvitae was my first thought but the wife shot it down quickly. We have seen more than one row of Arborvitae turn brown and it's not pretty. Also, the area of Rochester that we live is has quite a large population of deer and I have seen them take an Arborvitae down to the bark in bad winters. They haven't touched to two Hemlocks we have.
 
Thanks for the advice Molecule. The iron posts on the property line were exposed (by me) prior to the fnece going up and the fence is definitely not on the property line. It's close enough though that the neighbor had to stand on my side of the line to paint the ???? thing. I had half a mind to say something to him about that but did want things to get out of hand.

I'm glad you brought this up because one of my concerns with establishing a hedge row for privacy was that the neighbor woudl have to maintain the fence and might do harm to the plants because of the close proximity - another scenario that I don't want to think about.

Thanks again for the advice. Any idea how I sell the wife on it? ;)
 
Oh yeah now I get... "Honey, you have the ignoramous next door to thank for this wonderful evening...". I thought all I was going to get here was arborial advice. Who knew I'd get a good laugh as well. Thanks!

Anyone got any more idea on good candidates to screen out the fence?
 
cmontana said:
Oh yeah now I get... "Honey, you have the ignoramous next door to thank for this wonderful evening...". I thought all I was going to get here was arborial advice. Who knew I'd get a good laugh as well. Thanks!

Anyone got any more idea on good candidates to screen out the fence?
Sure, just hang up a big picture of your wife's favorite sex symbol, then she won't mind the fence. Either that, or have your mother come to live with you. What is it called, the gateway theory of pain? :)
 
fence

Have you checked with the town on the rules for fences and the setback required from the property line? Don't know how it is where you live but here the neighbor has to set it in on his property 2' so he can maintain it without stepping on your property. You'd need to get an exemption to build one over 6' tall. You are also required to get a permit to put the fence up unless it existed before the rule went into effect. This stopped a lot of neighborhood fights over fences. Out on the farm you just shake hands with the neighbor and then put the fence where you both agreed on. In town and rural are different animals. I have to go with Moleclue on the fence and property line, been through that one on property deals.
 
Good advice on researching local regs re setback, etc.

Re plants, if you don't want to sacrifice much turf (why not, is it a parttime soccer field?), how about getting fan trellises and training vines up them? Any plant slender enough to fit your specs is not going to screen much.
 
If you have intervisibility between the property markers (3/4" x 16" iron pipe in Va, depends on local practice) and you *are "for sure" that the markers you gently exposed but did not disturb are "original, undisturbed and verified" by survey, as the survey for your bank loan would have required, then you may not need to hire a surveyor to show you the property corners, and to set paint stripes on any line trees which block the sight line corner to corner. However, homeowners sometimes stick pipes or whatever in the ground "near" the original corner pipes, which can easily be 6" off, so you may want to be sure the fence wasn't built relying on one of them, or that the corners were moved "by some indians" just before the fence was built.

Geofore has good point about checking with zoning ... in some places anything over a 5' fence is a special exception in residential areas. Even if it is in violation of zoning, or possible violation of fire regulations if it's a wooden fence, the zoning "enforcement" process is a very weak one at best once the house has been occupied.

As for planting, I would recommend something which does not get big *too fast. Before you know it, your screen will be 15 tall, and the new growth will be "blocked" on the fence side, which will then push all the growth force out the other side of the tree, sending large shooter branches over your own garden area and requiring frequent maintenance and some heavy trimming. Pick something that grows a little slower and in a few years you'll be surprised how big it is. The years will pass by before you know it.

As for the wife, whew ... I'd listen very carefully to what she says, as long as (personal stuff ... she not feeling unloved, unforgiven, and unprotected). (With the divorse rate in this country as high as it is, that observation may seem obvious, but IMHO, it's a real problem for which us "real American men" will eventually pay a dear dear price. When God designed the souls of men and women, He was no dummy! And, it would be potentially catastrophic for any of us (super-real?) men to assume otherwise. JMHO) It's also my firm belief that in respect of certain kinds of intelligence, and information gathering and organization upon which intelligence depends, God made women's brains better than he made men's brains, by several orders of magnitude, including that of your wife ... so those brains, when they feel loved, protected and forgiven, can be a real asset, in spite of our erstwhile lapses in longer-frame concentration and focus. Women are generally pretty good with property issues, and as property, real estate is probably the most subtle of all ... even trickey ... things may seem to be moving slowly, but they can be h3!! to undo once you have chosen a course of action. So, I would treat wifie's probable desire to respond with organized positive change very seriously. No offense meant--she might even come up with a better idea than any of us men ever could, even on our best days.
 
Yew, stays green and has to be trimmed back to keep it from taking up width. Should camo the fence in a couple of years. Easy to trim, hard to kill from over trimming.
 
My dad did a yew tree screen, and it got out of control too quickly (after 20 years) and had to be pulled out ... err, cut down ... the roots on a yew will bust up a grinder something awful, and a 12,000 # winch, trying to roll the roots up and out using a 24" log as a roller/lever, was useless. yews have monster roots of steel.

My father put in a dense yew hedge to screen off his neighbor's laundry drying rack. He felt they were aiming the bottoms of their underwear right at him to "get" him. (He was a Democrat, they were Republican, and they really hated him. It was amazing.) When the hedge got to about 12-15' in height, and 12-15' in diameter, what this sick "neighbor" did, to "get back" at the efficiency of the hedge and to kill the yews, was stick his hand thru the fence and plants a row of 6 Virginia creeper vines, all the same age, all at exactly 5-7 inches in from the fence. Statistically, there is no way that row of Va creepers was bird droppings, exactly 5-7" off the fence and inward to the hedge. Unbeknownst to us, the vines were growing up on his side of the fence, until their roots were 2-3" in diameter. The big yew becomes such a filthy-dirty bug-infested poke-your-eye-out phenomenon, that it gets so dense and thick that, first you won't see the vine growing up the backside, until your neighbor lets it come over the top. By that time, its tentacles will be totally intertwined with every trunk and branch (e.g. you won't just grab the vine by the root and pull it "down" like on a pine or something). By the time we saw the vine coming over the top, our only efficient choices were (a) to cut the whole hedge back severely, just to physically get in there and get ahold of the tentacles to get them out, and to get access to the roots, so as to drill and inject with commercial full strength RoundUp. (You will then be covered in ticks, and spider droppings, and god knows what else!). That would have left a 5' high hedge, each tree topped with a hairy 4-6" diameter trunk, with short hairy 3" branches, with just a little green leaf to cover ... not pretty. Our only real choice was to remove the hedge completely. Republican neighbor won that one.

The one yew which we did maintain, and regularly cut back, in 20 yrs time (which is not a long time when making arborist decisions) looked really wierd ... it's branches were 4-6" thick, and then it had these little stubbles for "screening" It was just ugly.

Given that experience, I might suggest something slower and cleaner than the yew, and something where you can gain practical access to both sides of your hedge, for weeding and maintenance -- especially along a property line. You definitely do not want trouble along a property line, and that means you will need to be able to maintain access and line of sight (esp with a potential troublemaker as a neighbor), which an overly grown overly thick fast growing screening hedge will block. JMHO

One thing that might be said of a neighbor who builds a 6' fence on residential property without agreement from the adjoining owner, is that, for all of his this-and-that, he has, more likely than not, fenced out, more, than he has fenced in!
 
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Depends on how high you want to go. Do you want to just break up the fence, or hide it and your neighbor completely? Other things might be at play too, is he going to get a dog? Do you have a dog? Does he have 6 screaming kids - do you? etc etc.... Makes a difference as to choosing something like a vibernum versus roses... thorny roses :)

Whats the orientation (North/South, E/W etc)? If he is on the south side, and plants a 30 foot tall row of shrubs you'll have a heck of a time growing anything. Especially in Rochester.

I just did 106' and it cost me $2500. I doubt that he spent it because he couldn't find anything else to buy. Me thinks your plan should be carefully considered.
 
Well, thanks fo rall the advice everyone. She has her heart set on hemlocks, so hemlocks it will be. As for the neighbors Pondracer, you were right on most counts. They have two very annoying West Highland Terriers that have alrady been classified as nuisance barkers. The fence, allegedly, went up to reduce the noise - yeah, right. The fence does do a nice job of fencing in their two screaming kids. Sweet kids, but screamers none the less. It's really a shame how everything has gone south.

The fence runs northeast to southwest (the back side of the house has a southern exposure). I would think that anything planted on my side of the fence will get lots of mid-day to afternoon sun. The soil here has great drainage and a fair amount of sand (not a lot, but definitely no clay).

On another note, what do you all think about raised berms? I was thinking that, in order to gain a little height right off the bat, that I would set the root balls on grade and fill in around with a berms of good top soil and amendments. Anything I should look out for?
 
cmontana said:
West Highland Terriers that have alrady been classified as nuisance barkers. in order to gain a little height right off the bat, that I would set the root balls on grade and fill in around with a berms of good top soil and amendments. Anything I should look out for?
1. in my county 30 minutes is the nuisance criterion. I tape-recorded neighbor's dogs for that long and got 'Animal control out there. they got shocking collars on to cut out the barking, or maybe to stop me from calling them at 3 a.m. :laugh: .
2. berms? look out for drying out--no contact with real earth-> constant irrigation needs. Before wifey cajoles you into hemlocks, get her out to some mature ones and show her how big they need to get. :eek: You don't have that kind of room. if that don't work, show her how the adelgids will be flying in son to suck the life out of them. what's wrong with vines on trellises? Vines don't get no respect, but they are woody plants thus in the proper bailiwick of the arborist.

Can't climb em you say? Look at Tarzan...
 
vharrison2 said:
Cubic Zirconia?????????????what the heck you thinking?????????Emeralds; they stay green and don't need trimming.


Dont get out much round these parts!
 
Treeseer what are 'adelgids'? About the vines; that was one of my first suggestions but she wants something that stays green all year and the trellises are just another kind of fencing at this point.
 
what are 'adelgids'?
very bad bugs; search hemlock wooly adelgids.

About the vines; that was one of my first suggestions but she wants something that stays green all year
many vines are evergreen.

and the trellises are just another kind of fencing
in time they will be covered.

main point is to consider the mature size of a tree before deciding to plant it.
 
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