Video: Adjusted gun/tapered hinge experiment

[Ekka]

Well, I got some pines today so I mucked around a little to see what the effect of leaving a tapered hinge was (pie cut) and adjusted gun etc.

Conclusion is that leaving a taper doesn't turn the tree but it does help combat the lean.

9.03mins and 42.7mb wmv

www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/piecuts.wmv

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Ekka you might like to try a pair of stihl hi-lift wedges,you'll like them. Good vid,i'll give that cut a try next opportunity I get

 

[smokechase II]

Tapered hinge

Ekka:

A tapered hinge doesn't have to pull a tree beyond its face direction for it to have worked.

On the first tree, it may have been what helped sponsor the tree to match the face. Don't know, but it certainly has helped me do that.

Also, with the first tree, you pointed out that it was dead wood.
Not as strong. Tapered, (aka uneven) hinges do not work as well there, especially in softwood dead.

Less strength means you can do less, (I.e. moving a tree away from its lean).

Also on the first tree, you could place the wedge at an angle opposite the taper. This to move it toward where the taper is pointing.

I'll try and get some still photos where I'm going to be Friday in smaller diameter trees. This just as a discussion item. The trees will be dead Lodgepole and again, not much that dead wood offers.

Not usually an option on smaller diameters. But do need to mention that a deeper face, (not height), can provide a greater release. Easier to wedge and 'talk' a tree over in an angle away from the lean if the face is just a smidge deeper.
Of course, need the tree to be bigger to start to work with that thought.

 

[Ekka]

Yeah, I need higher lift wedges.

and yeah, they were dead except the last one, that one was OK and it went bang on the money of the adjusted gun technique.

I'll keep experimenting, both wedging and tapers etc and try to have the camera on it. It's when you get home and slow things down that you see what really happened.

 

[smokechase II]

Tapered hinge drawing

Ekka:
Here is a Kiwi site that is pretty decent:
http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf
(Mentioned by others recently, see illustration from page 25 below)

I said "A tapered hinge doesn't have to pull a tree beyond its face direction for it to have worked." I've seen this in several other instruction books that state that a tapered (uneven) hinge can be used to get a tree to commit to the face direction or pull it even further to match a right angle to the backside of the tapered hinge.

Though I'm not an arborist, I'll play one on TV.
I would not have much confidence in a tapered hinge in a critical situation with dead wood. I'd be a convert over to a rope pull pretty dang quick.

There are a few stages of dead;
1) Recently deceased, but wood solid,
2) Dead a few months but the stump area is still moist and basically solid wood to work with (tree dries from the top down). While this isn't perfect wood to work with, it's still usually just fine. In some instances, this can actually be a win/win. Tree above is lighter, easier to wedge, but still have reasonably good wood to cut on.
3) Wood dried throughout stump area and definitely brittle.
4) Rot starting and worse than just brittle.
The last two are basically go with just the lean or minimal variation or take down with an alternative equipment method.

 

[046]

nice work! thanks for sharing...

 

[B-Edwards]

This from( abormaster training) i have taken classes from them for ceu's for my ISA cert. (Leaving more wood on 1 side of the hinge does not help direct the fall of a tree). I agree and disagree, for the most part it doesnt help ,but i have done things with white oaks (IF) the roots are in the right place to help hold at the hinge that totaly say a taper does work. Theres so much to consider when trying this. I think experience is a great thing. Just make sure the experience your getting is safe and use what works for you. Oh and nice video Thanks for posting it

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The tapered hinge doesn't steer the tree, it helps prevent the hinge from failing when there is side load.
Adjusted gun, is another name for dropping a tree accurately, lol.
Unless the tree is perfectly straight, most felling should be done with a combination of tapered hinge and adjusted gun.

 

[smokechase II]

Tapered hinge evidence

B-Edwards:

What is the evidence presented?
Somewhere, here on arborsite.com I read that some German 'fiberologists' were stating that uneven hinges do not work.

Contrast that with the practical experience of many cutters from different locations and I'm gonna want some form of proof.

That it works, on a practical level is also hard to prove, agreed. A professional faller can have two extremely similar trees and cut them exactly the same, except for a tapered hinge on one. Doing this over a period of time and a variety of tree species etc., one can build up the experience to say yea or nay.
That doesn't constitute scientific evidence though, does it?

Does anyone know of a paper put forth on this issue? Or a few slow motion videos of hinge wood behavior during the fall?

A good portion of the reason I feel strongly that tapered hinges do work, is learning from my mistakes. Picture a Western US Firefighter type, that drops mostly dead trees - that are dry/brittle and where hinge wood errors are forgiven by the weakness of that weak wood - going to a large healthy green trees and accidentally leaving a tapered hinge. Bad habit - failure to maintain discipline - not professional. Cite me for the above. Understood.
In those trees I've pulled the tree to the heavy tapered side with some regularity. Yep, it didn't go the face direction; it even went away from the lean, type of thing.
Add this to the times where I've tried to do this and, viola, similar results.

In my experience, which is somewhat wide ranging, 17 states and Alberta, first certified as a FS 'C' Cutter in 1978, working with numerous pro's from all over. (Not a logger myself). Married in to them though. I can't recall a single non-believer in the tapered hinge. It is a commonly taught basic of tree felling.

Again, if proof is lacking from either group, this discussion will persevere longer than we.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If you are at the base of a tree doing the backcut, and carefully observe the top as it just starts to move, you can see the angle it is moving, and then slightly adjust that felling angle as it just starts to move, by cutting more fibers on one side or the other.
What you are doing in effect, is changing the shape of the hinge taper.
This proves, to me, that the taper does influence the direction of fall, albeit a small amount, particularly in the early moments of the fall.
The taper does however greatly increase the strength and effectiveness of the hinge, when properly applied.

What you then do to fell a tree is to set up your notch, adjusting the gun as needed. Next do your backcut to set up the taper, as dictated by the lean.
When you get good at it, you can also observe the initial moments of the top and do minor adjustments to the direction of fall, if needed.

To recap: adjust your gun (aim), set up the taper, adjust the taper if needed.

 

[smokechase II]

tapered hinge; professional view

Tim Ard’s and Mike Bolin’s E-book, "The Complete Guide ….", on page 133 states:
"It should be noted that the wood fibers of the hinge break first from the back. As the tree falls, fibers along the back side of the hinge will fail and break first. After the tree reaches a certain point in its fall, only the fibers at the front of the hinge are left to finish steering the tree to the ground. Therefore, making the hinge thinner on one side will not accomplish any steering function."
(Tim, in this and other writings does not believe in the tapered hinge.)

In Gerry Beranek’s book, "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work", page 298:
"A hinge that is uneven will tend to pull a tree to the side that has more wood. The tree will land somewhere between the gun of the undercut and the gun of the back cut. This is an applicable hinge for controlling trees with side lean or offset limb weight providing that the beefy side is on the tensioned part of the stump. ....."

Can anyone dig up quotes from Dents book, the BC Faller and Buckers book or the arbormaster verbage on this subject?

Thanks

 

[clearance]

duh

I am amazed at such a simple fact attracting so much talk, duh. I remember, again now, this thread that Murphy for trees had, called something like "tapered hinge comes through". I thought that he was talking about something new and cool, found out that all he was talking about was leaving more holding wood opposite to the side lean, OMFG, f--- me pink. Now we have it again, this was explained to me as a teenager, to see debate on it here is sad. Smokechase, I don't have a copy of the BC fallers and buckers manual (written by experienced faller/buckers who work for the compensation board), from memory it has drawings and explanations on how to fall wood using the so called tapered hinge. All you arborist, wanna be fallers that wonder, go out in the bush when no one is around and try it out, find a few leaners, fall them sideways, using the "tapered hinge" and using an even undercut, then come back and tell us what you found out.

 

[a_lopa]

youll be amazed again clearance by the people that dont know it.

let people learn

 

[Ekka]

Thanks Lopa.

It's great a video has brought up such a discussion.

I have for yonks been using tapered hinges.

I have always wondered about the effectiveness of the taper to pull a tree off it's gunned direction.

I know of the experience Mike speaks of but now I honestly think it could be an illusion. I think I'll be getting that camera out more often on this topic coz I dont believe the taper will pull the tree off it's gunned direction much ... if at all. However I think if you hang around cutting more and more as the tree is falling chasing it to the ground you certainly may ... and that may be a big NO NO but I'll do it on video to prove that it works (or perhaps not!)

Now, dont confuse that with a tree turning 20 degrees off it's gunned direction when the bark on one side breaks and not the other which hangs on .... so wing cuts should be done.

Interesting, and slowed up video is a good tool to use.

 

[smokechase II]

Try this

Ekka:
If possible; try filming a few green trees faced exactly with the lean.
From the rear as you're doing, slo mo editing for the good of the order.
One a control, even hinge. A couple with tapered hinges, perhaps varying in size.

Other variables my be the depth and height of the face (Kerf).

So just note those.

I'll see if I can do some of the same.

Thanks

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

youll be amazed again clearance by the people that dont know it.

let people learn

There are people of all skill levels that read here. Some whose head this will all go right over, some who might learn somethings, and some who think they know it all and still won't understand the subtleties of the art of felling.
Clearance might fit into the third category. He's known since he was a teenager that he should use tapered hinge on leaners, but misses the point on these tapered hinge vs. adjusted gun arguments. Even some of the most published "experts" disagree on the subject.

 

[smokechase II]

tapered hinge argue thingy

Mike:

The argument isn't just between a tapered hinge and adjusted gun. The people in that discussion agree that both work. It is just which one has the most merit.

There is also the debate on whether the tapered hinge works at all.

Though I cannot respond as colorfully as Clearance, I agree with him that it does work very well and that those opposed are a few bricks short of a load.
Or perhaps just less experienced in the woods.

 

[xtremetrees]

Nice Video!
I have never used wedges!
I have always pull my trees over with a rope. Those pines are about the same sizw here bro. Cant believe they burnt um like that.
Alot of time if my bar is to short Ill cut half my back cut on the far side and leave the finishing cut side.
The last 1 or 2 inches will hold alot. Alot of the time tree wont go until you least cut down to 1 inch of holding wood.
I've found that when I've hung trees the notch will twist but hold.

 

[B-Edwards]

Not to drag this out, in general i dont depend on holding 1 side or the other when i have a bad side lean. But i have pulled trees when the liability wasnt so great that made me say hmmm, wow.The time that sticks in my mind was with a White Oak, the root happened to be beside the hinge and i cut very low,this tree came around so good i couldnt believe it . But try that with a White Pine and a small limb growing out of the hinge of the side you want to hold. I was told during an Abormaster training event that it (Doesnt work) that the more wood you leave on 1 side only makes the wood break faster. I'm not taking a stand on this, i think in general treat this as it wont work and you'll be safer .Doesnt mean you cant still hold on 1 side ,just means your not depending on it alone.

 

[Ekka]

B Edwards

Maybe there is considerable difference in the strength of the trunk timber and the root timber and one side is breaking before the other.

I think most of us would agree that root timber would be wetter and hold tension better, so the act of the hinge breaking is thru tension. With a differing strength on one side the trunk timber breaks before the root timber allowing the tree to come around.

Again where a branch come out of a trunk you may find timber that is more accustomed to tension rather than compression.

If in fact we can duplicate these on video it would be a good thing to know when looking to pull a tree around .... notch at branches or root flares etc .....

.... the seed has been sewn.

So fallers, please line those cameras up in line with the notch and lets see what happens, I am somewhat limited here in suburbia.

What I did to line the camera up is stood in front of the notch at a fair distance and picked a landmark that was dead behind the tree then went around the back and lined up.

Regardless of what your brain might be telling you that is the right spot! Yep, at times I thought nah ... it's more over this way but you are getting sucked in with land lays, other trees, leans etc.... also there was no wind.

The second tree that fell you could easily see how the notch was dead ahead and the lean was followed all the way to the ground with the tree slightly off to the left ... no gunned adjustment.