What is the real speed penalty with "safety" chain?

[brages]

I think if you limited your original post as above, and left out the opinion part, you might not have got such opinionated replies. Live and learn.
I will try to do a comparison, like I said.

Or I may not have gotten any replies... :notrolls2:


I don't have an agenda; I'm just curious... what can I say, I'm from the Show-Me State...

 

[andyboy]

I know the safety chain is slower. I am not sure how much slower. It has been a while since I used the stuff, but it seems like I remember being impressed when I started using the pro chain (the guys at work told me to get some - probably laughing at me ). I only use my saws for firewood, and not even much of that lately, so I could live with a little slower cutting in exchange for more safety.

What I really cannot live with is loosing out on easy wood because my saw won't cut anything bigger than my bar. That really stinks in our area, because wood is relatively hard to find in the first place. Safety chain just doesn't cut it when you find a nice 24" fir, and only have an 18" bar (at least not the oregon 3/8 LP stuff that I had). It's as bad as having that little doo-hicky that echo (or homelite) puts at the end of the bar to protect you!

 

[andyboy]

Bore Cutting?

I know this is probably a dumb question, but what is "Bore Cutting"? Is that cutting something bigger than your bar?

 

[thomas72]

In my opinion safety chain is a false security. The best safety tip a new chainsaw user can have is one on one training. When I go out cutting firewood none of my saws have safety chain, and I just figure my non safety chain cuts considerably faster than safety chain which also tells me less wear is being put on my saw as well. If you want a good answer look at a loggers saw if you get the chance and see what chain is on it. As for safety chain the only thing I use it on is a electric chainsaw to cut up pallets. Since the chain is not as aggressive and the electric saw turns so slow if you hit a nail it does little damage to the chain.

 

[biggen0_8]

I used "safety" chain for the first several years that I cut wood, because I didn't even know there was anything else. Then I found this site and learned a couple of things, this fall I bought a loop of yellow. I found there to be a very noticable difference in speed. How much I don't know, didn't actually break out the stop watch. But enough that I want to keep using the good stuff. My decision has been to use "safety" chain on my small saw that I limb and cut brush with and the yellow on my bucking saw.

 

[tallfarmboy]

On one hand: More kickback safety and about 25% more time per cut.

On the other hand: Less kickback safety and about 25% less time per cut.

Just depends on which hand you want to use.... each has its advantages for different types of users. End of discussion....

None of the discussion about time savings is any good without some timed cuts or videos... So, I hope we can start seeing some videos posted for this thread soon.

TFB

 

[K9-Handler]

How many people reading this have ever had bad enough kickback to wear one in the head/helmet? Honest question as I'd like to know for my interest.

Just one punch in the gut with the saw's handle was all it took for me to learn.
I'm not a pro -- just a firewood farmer.

 

[Raymond]

:computer: If you argue and back up these safety chains you really should sell your saw. If you don't want to, that's up to you but by all means keep buying them.

We can find many stories, pics and videos of chainsaw accidents. That just means we're in a dangerous occupation.
When signing on to this site, I came in with an open mind, to maybe learn a little something. This being a dangerous occupation is not something I've learned here.

 

[flashpuppy]

I know this is probably a dumb question, but what is "Bore Cutting"? Is that cutting something bigger than your bar?

Basically, it is using the tip of your bar to start a cut and plunging through. It is typically used by experienced forestry professional in tricky cutting situations.

 

[Woodie]

Safety chain:

I think the OP posed a good question...and I don't think he's trying to convice anyone to do anything. He plays a good devil's advocate, but c'mon...lighten up guys.

I wish I could answer the question myself, but like the others...I haven't bought safety chain in a month of Sundays.

But like others said, if I had a son I was teaching to saw, you can be sure he'd have safety chain.

CU...that video above...outstanding! (I've got a belt sander that could've removed the same amount of wood in less time... )



.

 

[joesawer]

I had some guard link 44DL 3/8"LP chain given to me. I decided to give it to a mate who has a citrus orchard to use it on his 200T pruning saw. After using both types of chain he threw the guard link in the bin, ran it over with his tractor, doused it in petrol and then caught it alight. He reckons it cut that poorly that he never wants to see it again. Just a thought...
I know you should never get to cocky but I've never been concerned with kickback. I know it can happen but I believe that if using a chainsaw properly and not being stupid the likelihood of wearing a bar in the face at full tilt is pretty slim. You're more likely to cut your leg off.
How many people reading this have ever had bad enough kickback to wear one in the head/helmet? Honest question as I'd like to know for my interest.

Once many years ago I had a kick back occur violently on an old saw that the brake band failed. I wound up cutting a kerf in the brim of my hard hat with a wot 70cc saw. If I had not had my thumb around the handle bar, it would have hurt me bad.
Some years later, a spring pole launched a wot 90cc saw into me. The brake worked fine but the bar hit me in the head cuttin a few curly cues out of my hard hat and scalp with a stopped chain. The chain brake is the only thing that saved me that time.



I am willing to bet some money that, in the right conditions, my chains are close to twice as fast as out of the box safety chains.
I think that in severe cutting conditions safety chain would be more dangerous than fast chain.

 

[cord arrow]

OK..I read this post at lunch...been cutting all morning 'cause the ground finally froze. Slow at work, took the day off to get in the fields before the farmer does...

Soooooo....I've got a neighbor I cut with, he's 85. He's not opposed to safety chain so that's what I buy for him, I feel better about it as well.

Threw a loop of said chain on the 55 just for chits and grins after lunch....

Findings? Well...evidently you can never go back. I found myself leaning so hard on the saw my head and face were in perfect position to take a face blow if in fact I experienced "kick-back", something I've seldom encountered...other than perhaps a slight bar jump in a bad snag....nose contacting something. I've hit the chainbrake ONE time in twenty years in a situation when I thought it saved me...ONCE! And I'll never forget it.

Anyway...if you've never used anything else, I suppose you'd never know.

I sharpen my chains to be very aggressive, I love the self-feeding feeling...and no, I don't let anyone run my saws. Having said that...it was like stepping out of my wife's C6....and taking my 3/4 ton for a spirited drive.

So yes. Definite difference. I reckon I'd rather lean back and let the saw chew...as opposed to lean over and force my will upon it.

 

[Evan]

ohhhhhh yeah that self feeding feeling is awseome as the saw burbles as shes pinned wide open dropn through the wood under her own weight.

 

[cord arrow]

Evan knows....

And feathering the throttle at the end of the cut...'cause she'd like to go on ahead and cut right to the core of the earth....I get giddy get thinkin' about it.

 

[kevin j]

I would also like to see some hard data.
I run safety on the two small saws as they are most likely to have other users. My other saws, no one but me touches.
I see a huge difference from chipper to chisel, and stihl (local) only sells safety chipper or non safety chisel. So that is not an apples to apples comparison either.
also, there are varying grades of safety chain all the way from pathetic, to just mediocre.
It would be really nice to see the difference between s/ns but using exactly the same tooth design, and between various types of safety chain to determine which are worse than others.

opinions are great, I don't see the guy pushing his choice on others, just wants actuall hard data to make a choice.

'Just the facts, ma'am.' jeesh that is old.

kcj

 

[moose42]

Hi folks.

I see a lot of posters here talk about getting rid of that safety chain. I don't quite understand it. Except for dropping a tree or limb on yourself, a kickback is the most dangerous thing that can happen when you're sawing. And users are commonly advised to wear chaps, helmet, etc.

I know that safety chain isn't "safe" - it will still cut you. But it is designed to reduce the risk and severity of kickback. Similar to the oft-recommended PPE that is designed to reduce the risk and severity of injury. Why not run safety chain?

It is argued that you don't need low-kickback chain, you just need to be careful with your bar tip. Well, you don't need a chain brake either, you just need to be careful. And you certainly don't need chaps, just be careful. Etc...

Finally, I wonder how much slower safety chain really is. I can't find a good actual comparison out there anywhere. I'm surprised someone who likes to post videos of cookie-cutting hasn't done a green vs. yellow faceoff...

I think the speed difference for regular cutting shouldn't be much with a modern sefety chain with ramped drive links (not ramps on the tie straps or whatever those links are called). If you just look at the saw, the ramps are pretty much tucked in under the depth gauges until the chain goes around the bar tip. I know safety chain isn't supposed to be good in bore cutting, but most folks dont' bore cut very much, and Stihl does claim that their new safety chain has "improved bore cutting efficiency".

Also, there's that new Oregon Vanguard stuff, supposed to cut pretty good...

I think If you have to debate this then you should probabbly stick with safety chain. You aren't running a large saw and you don't seem all that experienced IMHO! Safety chain is mainly a way for the saw makers from getting sued because of carelessness. (kind of like suing colt for a murder). It takes concentration and skill to run a chainsaw safely. Even then accidents do happen. You assume that risk every time you pull the handle to start it. I think safety chain just give people who are afraid of saws a warm fuzzy feeling. I also think that it is good to teach people about saws and how to use them. But if you need them then you should probably put the saw down and go inside. Just my $.02

 

[moose42]

Search on "kickback" in the Injuries and Fatalities Forum gives 44 hits, some quite grisly:

http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=2464424

Safety chain reduces the chance of kickback, it doesn't eliminate it. Chainsaws are dangerous so matter how you look at it. I have cut my finger on the chain when the saw was just sitting there! leg injuries are more common than kickback injuries. Safety chain will still cut the leg just as fast!

 

[Eric Modell]

I am no expert but I drop start my husky that has no chain brake because they weren't invented , when I bought my saw. If I had to run safety chain that would be like putting training wheels on a bike.

 

[Dan_IN_MN]

Please read the whole post.

Hi folks.

I see a lot of posters here talk about getting rid of that safety chain. I don't quite understand it. Except for dropping a tree or limb on yourself, a kickback is the most dangerous thing that can happen when you're sawing. And users are commonly advised to wear chaps, helmet, etc.

I know that safety chain isn't "safe" - it will still cut you. But it is designed to reduce the risk and severity of kickback. Similar to the oft-recommended PPE that is designed to reduce the risk and severity of injury. Why not run safety chain?

It is argued that you don't need low-kickback chain, you just need to be careful with your bar tip. Well, you don't need a chain brake either, you just need to be careful. And you certainly don't need chaps, just be careful. Etc...

Finally, I wonder how much slower safety chain really is. I can't find a good actual comparison out there anywhere. I'm surprised someone who likes to post videos of cookie-cutting hasn't done a green vs. yellow faceoff...

I think the speed difference for regular cutting shouldn't be much with a modern sefety chain with ramped drive links (not ramps on the tie straps or whatever those links are called). If you just look at the saw, the ramps are pretty much tucked in under the depth gauges until the chain goes around the bar tip. I know safety chain isn't supposed to be good in bore cutting, but most folks dont' bore cut very much, and Stihl does claim that their new safety chain has "improved bore cutting efficiency".

Also, there's that new Oregon Vanguard stuff, supposed to cut pretty good...

My take on what brages is getting at is.......how much slower is safety chain and is the slower cutting worth the trade off for the "added safety"....... what he's not saying, IMO, is that every one of us on AS NEEDS to start using it.

Did you guys read his whole post or just the title and started flaming him? Flaming only discourages questions.

I feel that it was a fair question. If you don't like the question, do like I've done many times, hit the BACK button. But that might be a lesson on another thread.

Personally, I've learned a lot since I've joined AS. My saws run better because of the maintenance, tuning tips I've learned. Thanks to all of you guys willing to share your knowledge! Here are a few items that I can think of that I've learned here. I've learned to watch the size of the chips flying from the chain, listening to the saw, and tuning the carb to get some RPMS, put on a shorter bar so I'm pulling less chain. Before AS, the size of bar I used was the size the saw came with....

I learned that 2 of my saws "had" safety chain on them and I wondered why they didn't cut. I didn't know what SC was until I read about it here. I will not be using it.

When I cut I want the least about of time spent in the cut......and then it's on to the next cut.......

I think the OP posed a good question...and I don't think he's trying to convice anyone to do anything. He plays a good devil's advocate, but c'mon...lighten up guys.

I wish I could answer the question myself, but like the others...I haven't bought safety chain in a month of Sundays.

But like others said, if I had a son I was teaching to saw, you can be sure he'd have safety chain.

CU...that video above...outstanding! (I've got a belt sander that could've removed the same amount of wood in less time... )



.

:agree2::agree2::agree2:
I too liked the videos. However, I expected to see the same saw cutting the same wood with the different chains. Not a ~30cc pitted against a ~50-60cc saw

 

[thejdman04]

Consider the source.

AS is the land of chainsaw enthusiasts. Enthusiasts in their enthusiasm are, by definition, never satisfied with the mediocre. We won't even leave our mufflers alone, fer chrisakes.

So you are advocating we should all ditch our pro chain and use safety chain. I gotta tell ya, it's more than seconds on a stopwatch. Running safety chain is boring (not literally...), while with pro chain there is a distinct satisfaction of pulling the trigger and having the saw pull hard forward as it takes a bite. It's like the thrust in your back from a strong V-8 engine. It's a key component of a grin-machine.

Putting safety chain on a hot saw would be like running bias-ply truck tires on your 911 Turbo. It just don't make any sense...

:greenchainsaw:

x2 especially with real hardwoods and long bars safety chain doesnt pull noodles.