What's The Best OWB?

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OWB etc.

I got some pricing today on the Hawken
HE-2100: $7,395 With everything i need to hook up $10,353
Orion: $9,395 With everything i need to hook up`$12,395

The Orion is the smaller unit with gasification that complies with EPA regulations
The HE-2100 is the Large unit with blower in the door

I like the larger unit because of it's simple design and round fire box, but i'm sure it will use allot more wood...It holds 368/gal of water....Just worried the HE-2100 would be over kill? This larger unit doesn't have to comply with EPA regulations because it's classified as industrial use?
The Orion holds 107 gal of water

The one that i really wanted (HE-1100) is no longer available due to EPA regulations
Any advice on my choice on these two units would be appreciated
I'm still open minded to any other Brands

I was looking on Central Boiler's website and found this unit...allot cheaper than the Hawken i've been looking at....can anyone give me any feedback on this unit...Thanks again for everyone's help


Classic CL 4030
US $5,490 MSRP *
-$200 Spring Rebate
$5,290

Door 20"x 20"
Firebox 40"x30"x26"
Heat Transfer Area 52 sq. ft.
Weight 1,350 lbs
Water Capacity 140/gal




About this;


Even if you purchased the smallest Harmon wood and coal boiler
and purchased an insulated storage tank from New Horizons (490 Gallons)
you will be better off and have spent less money.

Buying a second tank will add another 490 gallons of storage for your heat load
and will give you over 1,000 gallons of water before batting an eyelash.

Once you buy it..................................... A lot of folks spend 2 or 3 seasons stuffing wood in them 25 cords one year and 22 the next and simply dont bother with it anymore and leave them out as lawn art.

IF YOU Buy one of these things fill it better than half full of high silica firebrick to increase the thermal mass to store and radiate heat back into the water jacket.

You need storage more than fire box size in any case.
 
If anyone is dead set on buying an OWB I would say go with the brand you feel you can get good service on. That's about the only real issue.
There are issues with every brand and industry average life expectancy is about 7-9 years before turning to scrap metal. You'll find some that last longer, some shorter than that with every brand out there.

None of them are efficient in terms of btu input (the amount of wood you burn) vs btu output (the amount of heat you actually get to use).
None of them, including most of the PhaseII units, (do a little research on the www) are very clean burning especially if you use unseasoned wood. (The EPA PhaseII test is a joke)

Tests have shown that they put as much fine particulate in the air around your home as having 400 (yes that's four hundred) packs of cigarettes smoked in your yard everyday. If you're OK with that then by all means do so.
Personally, I'm afraid they are all giving wood burning in general a black eye in the view of federal regulatory agencies, municipalities and local jurisdictions. Their continued use is probably the worst unseen enemy in the long term for those of us who like/want to burn wood.
 
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I was looking on Central Boiler's website and found this unit...allot cheaper than the Hawken i've been looking at....can anyone give me any feedback on this unit...Thanks again for everyone's help


Classic CL 4030
US $5,490 MSRP *
-$200 Spring Rebate
$5,290

Door 20"x 20"
Firebox 40"x30"x26"
Heat Transfer Area 52 sq. ft.
Weight 1,350 lbs
Water Capacity 140/gal

Have you considered an indoor boiler placed in a shed?
 
I was looking on Central Boiler's website and found this unit...allot cheaper than the Hawken i've been looking at....can anyone give me any feedback on this unit...Thanks again for everyone's help


Classic CL 4030
US $5,490 MSRP *
-$200 Spring Rebate
$5,290

Door 20"x 20"
Firebox 40"x30"x26"
Heat Transfer Area 52 sq. ft.
Weight 1,350 lbs
Water Capacity 140/gal

Maybe I missed it but are you planning on heating the water as well? If so, you may want to get a size bigger.
 
If anyone is dead set on buying an OWB......

Tests have shown that they put as much fine particulate in the air around your home as having 400 (yes that's four hundred) packs of cigarettes smoked in your yard everyday. If you're OK with that then by all means do so.

Personally, I'm afraid they are all giving wood burning in general a black eye in the view of federal regulatory agencies, municipalities and local jurisdictions. Their continued use is probably the worst unseen enemy in the long term for those of us who like/want to burn wood.


Somebody throwed 8000 cigs in a outdoor boiler? That is wasteful. And not near my home, please.
 
OWB etc.

Oh I'm sure they see the light. They see that profit and sales is what keeps them in business. Sure they could do all kinds of things to make their units better but then they also see that they will price themselves right out of business.
I see guys on here complaining all the time about what OWB manufacturers should do to make their units better. All the time you forget that "bottom line/income" is what it's ALL about.
They are building a unit that falls into a certain price point and allows for a certain profit.


NO they are in business to make money first so..........

NO, I did not forget that their net income per quarter affects everything that affects the following years operation.


The fixed overhead costs include electrical power, heating and cooling and taxes are stable.
the variable costs are not limited to the price of 'labor, insurance, advertising, transportation of the finished product, steel, plumbing parts, electrical parts, welding wire and rod,welding gasses, are variable.

Sales costs amount to showing product at trade shows paying national sales staff salaries and having the dealer network visiting farm shows and home shows where the dealer rents space on thier own dime during the show to showcase the product to the consumer.

Their business model is demand driven and they build machines AS NEEDED for thier retailer network.
They do not have to make their units better because they do not have to.
They have stable factory overhead costs which aids in reducing operating cost the year round.

They purchase steel in quantity taking advantage of volume purchases for forecasted sales but the cost per pound is the same.

Any steel purchased is an inventory item.
Every unit that is built requires a certain amount steel product for the shell, firebox etc.,
is known and the labor required to build each unit is known.
They purchase the steel they use by the ton and by the cut like everyone else.
They purchase national advertising in quantity in many forms at a very very low cost.
Thier manufacturing is typically in one location with massive shop tools and plasma.
cutting machines where the steel is cut using computer programs to reduce waste to a minimum.

The steel shears, sheet metal benders, and steel presses are used for all the models they build
so they are used more often and the cost per unit is much less in manufacture.

They buy welding rod and welding wire in pallet quatities and most likely use oxygen generators
and acetylene generators where needed as well as manual plasma cutters and buy shielding gasses in bulk quantities if shielding gasses are used for welding.

They buy electrical components like everyone else does in pallet loads gaining huge cost savings
reducing the cost per unit substantially and thereby increasing their purchasing power.

They buy plumbing parts by the pallet load gaining huge savings reducing the cost per unit of material used
and again increasing thier purchasing power.




It all depends on their internal rate of return and their return on investment and the price of fossil fuels which also drives the sale of the machines they build based simply on thier dealer network demand for the product.
 
Somebody throwed 8000 cigs in a outdoor boiler? That is wasteful. And not near my home, please.


Typical OWB owner response.
FmSAeDK.png
 
I think ya missed my point Leon. I'm not totally sure but I THINK you did. I read your last post a couple of times and while you seem to be giving a long winded explanation of what I originally said, I feel there was a debate hidden in there.

Anyways,,, to clarify my point.
OWB manufacturers are building units that fall into a certain price point.
Manufacturer X is building a unit to sell for $7000 (I'm just gonna pull numbers out of a hat here)
I'm bettin their bean counters have done the market research and have decided that $7000 will appeal to a certain portion of the market that they wish to attract.
Sure they could add this, improve that, use better this, change that, etc but then one of two things happens.
The price of the unit goes up or profits go down.
All I'm saying is that the manufacturers are likely giving you all they can for their asking price of the unit.

Think of it this way. Ford made the Escort and the Lincoln Town car. If you added all the gizmos and quality upgrades to the Escort you suddenly have a Town car and no longer appeal to the Escort market share.
 
After Researching a bunch of different boilers I'm Gonna go with the Central Boiler E-Classic 1450
The only stove dealers i have within a 60/mile radius is Hawken,Heatmor and Central Boiler
In my humble opinion the Central Boiler is a better unit, again just my opinion
The Hawken looks like a nice stove, but has some features that i don't care for...for instance the heat tubes run horizontally above the fire box that from what i'm told , are a PITA to clean..you have to run a cable through one end than pull out the other end on every tube
The Central boiler tubes run vertically at an angle..all you have to do to clean them is use a scraper and push any ash right into the ash try
side by side you can see that the Central boiler is better built...more attention to detail
I also like that everything on the Central boiler is welded on both sides...the quality of the welds just look better on the central Boiler
I didn't spend allot of time looking at the Heatmor, I haven't heard much about them, but at a glance i didn't care for the design..I'm Not saying that there not a good stove..so Heatmor owners don't blow up on me. But when i opened the fire door i could look down and see the ground at the bottom of the fire boX???
Don't know what I'm missing? Maybe the'res a plate that goes on the bottom of the fire box that wasn't in place?
I have hot water base board heat..The dearer said I can hook the boiler up directly or use a heat ex changer... What's the Best Method??? Thanks
 
I think ya missed my point Leon. I'm not totally sure but I THINK you did. I read your last post a couple of times and while you seem to be giving a long winded explanation of what I originally said, I feel there was a debate hidden in there.

Anyways,,, to clarify my point.
OWB manufacturers are building units that fall into a certain price point.
Manufacturer X is building a unit to sell for $7000 (I'm just gonna pull numbers out of a hat here)
I'm bettin their bean counters have done the market research and have decided that $7000 will appeal to a certain portion of the market that they wish to attract.
Sure they could add this, improve that, use better this, change that, etc but then one of two things happens.
The price of the unit goes up or profits go down.
All I'm saying is that the manufacturers are likely giving you all they can for their asking price of the unit.

Think of it this way. Ford made the Escort and the Lincoln Town car. If you added all the gizmos and quality upgrades to the Escort you suddenly have a Town car and no longer appeal to the Escort market share.



I Understood exactly what you were saying,

I grew up in retailing, profit margins are much much higher than
they were 30 plus years ago due to inflation and the business traffic
is paying and paying and paying.

Like everyone else in any multi competitor business they are benefiting
from the economies of scale in building thier product which is no different
that building automobiles in most cases.

Lets take Volvo automobiles for an example; They are assembled by teams
of six employees one at a time (or were) and they have excellent quality
and resale value.

The thing about these boilers is they are easy to build and some builders
may be using robots by now(not sure if any of them are yet).


They have no reason to increase how efficient thier boilers
are due to the "existing" EPA guidelines.

They are in the business to make money, just as
their dealer network is intent on making money.

If they were not making money they would NOT be
doing this nor would many of them be advertising
on a national scale or in Central Boilers case attempting to
sell thier product line in Europe at their home heating trade
shows on the continent. AS I understand it the gassers made by
Central Boiler do not meet the European Standards.


For many of the resellers they have these boilers for sale as an
additional prouct line to offer the consumer.



They could make a better quality product but have no incentive
to due to the current so called wood burning regulations.

The use of double welds in thier construction does one thing,
it prevents warping while welding to reduce the chance of
leaking and add strength back to the sheet steel as long as
the steel is not burned through in the process.

If every one used boiler plate there would be no issues because it is
a steel with a high carbon and manganese content.


If everyone split thier firewood small and or had 12 inch splits they
would have a better burn and less smoke and better heating.

Using firebrick and creating an afterburner in the combustion chamber would
go a long way to reducing smoke particulate pollution.



If a small two or three pass boiler was made like the Switzer Hybrid
they would have a better boiler and much less smoke and the end user
would have a large amount of water for thermal mass.


I welcome any manufacturer to discuss this further as I have nothing to
gain by discussing this frankly and completely.
 
Owb

After Researching a bunch of different boilers I'm Gonna go with the Central Boiler E-Classic 1450
The only stove dealers i have within a 60/mile radius is Hawken,Heatmor and Central Boiler
In my humble opinion the Central Boiler is a better unit, again just my opinion
The Hawken looks like a nice stove, but has some features that i don't care for...for instance the heat tubes run horizontally above the fire box that from what i'm told , are a PITA to clean..you have to run a cable through one end than pull out the other end on every tube
The Central boiler tubes run vertically at an angle..all you have to do to clean them is use a scraper and push any ash right into the ash try
side by side you can see that the Central boiler is better built...more attention to detail
I also like that everything on the Central boiler is welded on both sides...the quality of the welds just look better on the central Boiler
I didn't spend allot of time looking at the Heatmor, I haven't heard much about them, but at a glance i didn't care for the design..I'm Not saying that there not a good stove..so Heatmor owners don't blow up on me. But when i opened the fire door i could look down and see the ground at the bottom of the fire boX???
Don't know what I'm missing? Maybe the'res a plate that goes on the bottom of the fire box that wasn't in place?
I have hot water base board heat..The dealer said I can hook the boiler
up directly or use a heat ex changer... What's the Best Method??? Thanks




You cannot tell that a boiler is better built unless you can see the interior welds.


It all depends on your wallet; by installing hot water storage you will be batch burning with
much less smoke and you will have less idling and smoke which is lost heat and adding an
insulated storage tank inside if you have space will help you a great deal and you will reduce
the built in inneficiencies of the boiler.

You can also add a heat exchanger for your hot water heater and attach it to the storage tanks plumbing.

you have to be sure you have a backflow preventer installed for plumbing code in the water feed system even if you use a ball valve or boiler drain valve to fill the boiler.


By using two pumps, one operating continuously between the boiler and the storage tank and the second as the pump for heating the home you will have a somewhat more efficient system

By installing both pumps in the home you will prevent them from freezing and becoming damaged.
 
Free heat machine

There's a number of reasons the US Navy selected "round" for the basic shape of our submarines and strength is the primary attribute. Good eye. :msp_thumbup:
Yes, and just think if you turned that sub into a fire box. Can you say hybrid fire? Just another superior design by "free heat machine". They seriously thought of everything.

Burning wet wood inefficiently for 4 years.

Erin
 
I grew up in retailing, profit margins are much much higher than
they were 30 plus years ago due to inflation and the business traffic
is paying and paying and paying.
This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even get started.


If everyone split thier firewood small and or had 12 inch splits they
would have a better burn and less smoke and better heating.
It's clear from your numerous long winded posts here and on other threads that you have no love of OWB's. But your above statement is sound - if you spent your time educating people on the advantages of burning wood with the proper moisture content we would all be better off. The splits don't have to be small, they just need to have the minimum moisture content. Other than that, if you know so much about how to build an OWB then go do it and put all these unknowing fools out of business. :msp_rolleyes:
 
This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even get started.



It's clear from your numerous long winded posts here and on other threads that you have no love of OWB's. But your above statement is sound - if you spent your time educating people on the advantages of burning wood with the proper moisture content we would all be better off. The splits don't have to be small, they just need to have the minimum moisture content. Other than that, if you know so much about how to build an OWB then go do it and put all these unknowing fools out of business. :msp_rolleyes:

Why build one if there are a handful of gasification boilers already available? Any good batch burner with storage will outdo any owb in efficiency.

I will have a gasser hopefully by next heating season. I'm sick of feeding my "free heat machine".

Owb's... Been there, done that.

Erin
 
Owb

Why build one if there are a handful of gasification boilers already available? Any good batch burner with storage will outdo any owb in efficiency.

I will have a gasser hopefully by next heating season. I'm sick of feeding my "free heat machine".

Owb's... Been there, done that.

Erin

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you Erin,

Please redirect any flaming you recieve my way as my asbestos
underware is still under warranty.


OOPS!!!, just realised asbestos can not be used anymore and I better bury it quick in an approved landfill!!!!!

:rock::chainsaw:
 
Owb

This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even get started.



It's clear from your numerous long winded posts here and on other threads that you have no love of OWB's. But your above statement is sound - if you spent your time educating people on the advantages of burning wood with the proper moisture content we would all be better off. The splits don't have to be small, they just need to have the minimum moisture content. Other than that, if you know so much about how to build an OWB then go do it and put all these unknowing fools out of business. :msp_rolleyes:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the compliment.

Wood burning for home heating is not an exact science and unfortunately it will never be one.
Unless of course you are the fellow that sells wood to Vermont Castings for test burns and is
required to steam kiln dry all his firewood prior to delivering it to them.

And with so many choices and fuels like wood pellets available for the consumer or the romance bundles or fire pits or having so many homes that lack proper insulation through no fault of the new owners of these homes.

Everything has its opportunity cost, which is what are YOU willing to give up to obtain something else?

If i could have afforded the payments for a Vanwert Coal stoker I would have done that but as I was able to purchase a wood boiler for less money I did that. These same coal stokers are being offered for $8,500 plus dollars now 31 years later-which is still a bargain in the scheme of things as kerosene as heating fuel will continue to rise in price.

AN outdoor boiler with the hearth under a water mass with a three pass fire tube system will work wonders just as was done with steam locomotives. Its not like we have to stop every eight miles to take on water for the boiler every time with these things, I just want to see folks work less hard to heat their homes when they spend good money on these things expecting good results.

The Lehigh Valley Railroad used Anthracite coal for thier locomotives because they had access to the coal fields in Scranton, Wilkes Barre and Hazleton, Pennsylvania They always had clean burning steam locomotives because of it and the use of stokers for the anthracite coal.





I ma sorry if you dont like the detail I go into but thats just my nature; no different than the Japanese skyscraper owner in Tokyo that plans absolutely everything involved with a the safe escape of his or her tenants in the event of a building fire or Heaven forbid an earthquake to the last detail-that is why they have so few deaths from earthquakes in the major cities there-except for the Fukushima Earthquake and tidal wave two years ago where the ground dropped below the point where the Tsunami gates were overtopped by the ocean resulting in so many deaths.

One of my choices was purchasing the truck I drove for 13 years replacing parts and changing the oil every two thousand miles until I found a repo of the same brand with 2,000 miles on it of the same quality that will probably last me until I cannot drive any longer as I no longer work at a job in a corrosive atmosphere.

The oil boiler I replaced was 35 years old and the Buderous I replaced it with is now 25 years old and I have not had any problems with it-

Edited: (Just the two specific thieving oil repair technitions) telling me I needed a new burner AND boiler when I found out later that parts were still available for the old ones.


I would rather see the deck stacked in favor of the end user anyday rather than listen to pitchmen brag about thier burners being so efficient. like I said they are in business to make money and that is the simple fact of the matter we all lose because all the brands could burn much better with a bit more work but I do not see that changing anytime soon because the retail costs would go up and kill the market for these things.
 
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Oh, oil burner "technitions" are thieves? I've installed furnaces/boilers, and serviced oil burners for around 40 yrs., probably doing it when you were nothing more but a gleam in your daddy's eyes. I was always fair and honest with my customers, and yes, most anything in the Buderus/Vaillaint line is still available. Why don't you learn to work on it yourself and skip the chicanery?
 
Owb

Oh, oil burner "technitions" are thieves? I've installed furnaces/boilers, and serviced oil burners for around 40 yrs., probably doing it when you were nothing more but a gleam in your daddy's eyes. I was always fair and honest with my customers, and yes, most anything in the Buderus/Vaillaint line is still available. Why don't you learn to work on it yourself and skip the chicanery?



Hello mtfallsmikey,

I was not referring to you or all oil burner repair folks in general, I was taken advantage of as it was the middle of the night when my burners failed and I was told that there were no replacement parts available for the two burners I had replaced which I learned later was a lie.



I offer you a sincere apology as I apparently offended you personally.
 
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I grew up in retailing, profit margins are much much higher than
they were 30 plus years ago due to inflation and the business traffic
is paying and paying and paying.
This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even get started.
Yeah, I was thinking the only ones making a higher profit margin is the petroleum companies. I know I'm not making a higher profit margin than I was in the 80's. Of course, I'm sure leon will tell me I'm in the wrong business, or doing what I do wrong, or not making a quality product, or... or... or. :msp_rolleyes:

... if you know so much about how to build an OWB then go do it and put all these unknowing fools out of business.
I think the same thing every time I read one of his posts. If he put half the effort into doing something constructive instead of ridiculing everything except his own opinions, he might actually achieve something.

I was not referring to to you, I was taken advantage of as it was the middle of the night when my burners failed and I was told that there were no replacement parts available for the two burners I had replaced which I learned later was a lie.
If you present yourself in person the same way you do here, they might have told you a lie just so you'd say 'no' and they could get out of there. And if by chance you took their bait and went for the new burners or boilers, they'd make their time with you worth their effort.

Just because someone doesn't want to install a 2 or 5 or 10 thousand gallon water tank doesn't make the system they DO want any less valid. Some people WANT efficiency, some could care less. And as far as the boilerplate issue goes, yeah, it's probably better than mild steel. But if was all that great, old steam locomotives would never have had to have been rebuilt. Or repaired for that matter. And there were plenty of boiler repair people in the heyday of the steam engine.

I, for one, found RiverRocket's view of the Central Boiler over the Hawken to be pretty interesting. I will never own a Central because I have a hang-up about square fireboxes, but that doesn't mean it's not a great boiler that he'll probably get at least 20 years out of with minimal maintenance. And his point about it being welded on both sides was a valid point. Your condescending reply to him was, "You cannot tell that a boiler is better built unless you can see the interior welds." How do you know he DIDN'T see the interior welds? I HAVE seen the inside and outside of the Hawken boilers and know they are NOT welded on both sides. If I end up with a Hawken, mine WILL be welded on both sides because I'll do it myself. But that's my choice.

RiverRocket; I think you'll be happy with the Central. 3 of my friends have them and one is going on 17 years of 9 months a year service and he just replaced a pump this past winter. That's the only thing he's ever done to it. As for plumbing yours directly into the baseboard, I wouldn't do that myself. I'd rather heat the water in the existing boiler and if something ever happens to your Central, you'll have the option of using your pre-existing boiler as a backup.
 
:dizzy: I'm new here but I'm going to throw my two cents in. I did the indoor boiler game and wasn't impressed. I could get it to not smoke too bad by varying sizes and types of wood. But, I still had fire in the house and a chimney to maintain. Along with 5 cord of wood stocked in the basement, I always had it on my mind when I left for the day. I then switched to and OWB, Heatmor, and went through the same learning curve of figuring out what it liked. I am very pleased with it as it outperforms the indoor unit and I don't have the worry when I leave for work for the day. The best advice I was given when shopping for an OWB was that it is pretty much a Ford, Chevy, Dodge thing when it comes to the big names. Buy the one with the features and dealer you like. All are good and all have problems. As far as smoke, if you have neighbors look into gasification models, if not look into standards. The standards generally smoke more until you get the knack of what it needs. However; the gasification needs much dryer wood. If this info has already been posted feel free to blast away,
 
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