new climbing styles vs. old

[Tom Dunlap]

046,

I'm on the road now and my the photo editing software that I can use isn't on this laptop.

If you go to:

http://www.onrope1.com/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=f40

you'll see a good illustration of the Frog System.

I use a small CMI handled ascender for my upper. There's a cord connecting the upper and my front D-ring. Hanging from the upper is an adjustable footloop from Sherrill. The chest ascender is connected to my bridge using a small stainless steel screw link. This is a nice unit, about 1.75" long and rated to 6k#. To keep the chest ascender upright I made a shoulder strap using 1" flat webbing and a plastic friction buckle. A non-locking bent gate biner clips to a gear loop on the back of my saddle.

Like I said, the Pantin stays on my foot most of the time.

At the 2006 ITCC Ronnie Eppel used a Frog System to ascend for his Master's Challenge climb. It was fun to be in the middle of a crowd and hearing all of the exclamations. Many people had no clue what he was doing. his ascent was close to the tree so it looked like he had crampons on and was front-pointing up the tree. Not the case though.

My DdRT kit is like I described earlier. All of the components, except my slacktender are readily available.

 

[Tree Machine]

What's a slacktender? The systems I use don't require anything like that. Nor chest harnesses, footloops or any of the connecting hardware. I'll bet the 6K rated quickling could be used as a friction controller, though. See Storrick's site under 'Tube and Belay devices' if you don't know what I mean.

BTW, I'm not knocking the frog system or any of Tom's setup. I just shy away from more involved systems unless they're needed (which, apparently is never).

I use a Kong dual ascender on the way up, whether doubled rope or single rope. It is backed up by an easily removable bar that creates no additional friction and keeps the rope captive within the shell, even if the ascender cam were to fail. I don't like seperate ascenders for tree work. You're either going up a single rope, or up a doubled rope and the dual ascenders will do both. Since I flip between systems, sometimes during the same climb, the duals are essential for the versatility.

I work off the ascenders on the way up, either with a Silky, the chainsaw, or pole pruners. I try to always follow the guideline of being tied in twice (sinking a flipline) before cutting anything.


Coming down???? It varies a lot, from mood to mood, week to week, SRT to DRT and what I've found available. I've tried a lot of things, simple things, and they all do about the same job with minor variations between them.

I have not gotten into the complex devices, like the unicender or really anything that costs over $30. I explore the easy ones, the basics. A number of them you will find at Storrick's site as he has the most complete collection known to man. There are a couple, actually one in particular that I offered Dr Storrick about two years ago, but he never got back with me. It didn't fit any of his categories.

Anyway, having studied these things judiciously (I've easily been to Storrick's site dozens of times) and having used a good many of them, the thought that plays through again and again while using is 'How is this device different then the last? What are it's limitations with regards to tree climbing? Could the device be modified to be more ideal? What would it take to overcome the limitations? How could one device cover all the requirements?'

Sometimes a device is what it is, and does what it does. The device could be simplified, but can't be made to do more than it does. I'll use it, learn it, understand it, and toss it in the gear box. You don't stick with a piece that does less for you than something previous.

 

[xtremetrees]

I appreciate you guys effort. Time is money and in our case its doctors pay, I'm a noob 19 months in business and I can command a 200 an hr wage.

So all this time you folks contribute to threads, post thought, experience, tested techinigues, I appreciate because I know how valuable your time is and you take that time and give to me.

This proves that being a C.A. is mostly a vol. esxperience. Most scoff at the idea of altruism but we know it may save a climbers life in the future as they slum your post.

I waited for 3 years for petzl to come out with the petzl shunt, a double rope rope grab to replace my two wrap prusic and still I have not purchased one.
I think that the two verses one rope grab mechanical device is much better thanks TM for enlightening me with your time tested technique. but again. lol

 

[xtremetrees]

Tom said, "I've spent some time trying to find a hitch that will work for ascent and descent on SRT. This is a challenge. After using a number of hitches with different cords I've come to the conclusion that another road needs traveling. "
Humm, very interesting.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

'Slack tender' is another, more generic, name for the pieces of gear that people put below their friction hitch to take up the extra rope. A long time ago I quit using a pulley and found a $5 dog leash snap that works at about the 95th percentile compared to using a pulley and snap. I'll give up the 5% efficiency to simplify my kit. Dropping a snap doesn't cost much, dropping even a cheap pulley does.

It's interesting to read, "...I just shy away from more involved systems unless they're needed (which, apparently is never)." This sounds very dismissive. You might not find that they're never needed but a lot of rope workers do.

Footlocking ropes for years, some shorter years than others, is not good for anyone's body. Has anyone talked with a sport's therapist, physical therapist of an ergonomic specialist? All of the ones that I've talked to have shared insights about how bad footlocking is for our bodies. When I talk with these specialists about trees, they listen to me because this is my area of expertise. When they talk about their area of expertise I listen with as much respect. After hearing the same message from many specialists I came to the conclusion that FLing needs to be reduced and modified. Using a Pantin is one of the easiest ways to reduce wear and tear.

TM...

CAn you describe or post a picture of the bar that you use to back up your ascenders?

What are the under $30 devices that you're using? Sharing your successes would be really nice.

A couple of friends of mine who work in Germany had the good fortune to cross paths with "the" Mr. Bachmann. He saw them working a tree job in the rain and stayed around to watch. When they were on the ground he walked up to talk about their climbing systems. Bachmann was VERY intrigued about how arbos using friction hitches. We have become a repository of archane uses of rope friction. Bachmann is very excited to see how arbos are developing systems that use friction hitches in a unique way. We're the only rope industry that uses rope on rope friction systems for descending...and with a great safety record. Expect to hear more about this chance encounter.

After talking with my friends we all agreed that the likely future of arbo SRT will be some variation of combining a friction hitch and a chunk of metal. What it will look like is for an arbo to discover. Like I said, the Unicender has changed the path. In time, something like that will have the best chance of becoming 'normal', not just for arbos but for all working rope technicians.

 

[Stumper]

Tom, You kicked up a rabbit that I would like to chase.....When are we goingto dump footlocking out of the TCCs? Th epractic eis archaic, unhealthy, and unused by many arbos except for competition. Since the comps are supposed to reflect work practices the footlock should go away.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Yeah!!! I couldn't agree more. Cavers have rope walking [running???] competitions at their conferences. One time I read the times and was blown away! They climb much higher than 15 meters too. My recollection is that it is almost as fast vertical as it would take to run on the ground.

Some other SRT access converts were talking about an event like this for TCC. After brainstorming the conclusion would be to have the climber start out not wearing their saddle and the ropewalking system off the rope. Time would start, the climber would enter the ring, install their system, put the saddle on and climb the rope to a bell. How much interest would there be in having a demo event at chapter TCC.

Let's not get started on changing aerial rescue event in the TCC to look more like what a real rescue should look like. That is fodder for a separate thread.

 

[Tree Machine]

I really appreciate the replies and acknowledgements, especially that time is money. I am possibly the worlds slowest typer. Yesterday when I finished my post here it was after 11:00am. My morning was shot and all income opportunity lost. I'm not cryin about it. It has happened hundreds of times over the years, but thanks for the understanding.

In fact, Elizabeth loses a lot of time with me over my being here and we've agreed that I will contribute to no more than two threads at any one given point in time. She says I'll choose what I share with you guys and focus and do a better overall job.... and be less likely to disappear into the basement not to be seen for the rest of the night. Smart girl.


Anyway, this is one of my two threads. I chose it because of the title, new climbing styles vs old. There's always gonna be a 'black sheep' in the family and I'm learning I'm more black than most. I figured there MUST be some other hardware-based arborists, but I'm not so sure. Treeguy 165 was interested enough to bring up the topic in August 2002 and SRT Tech resurfaced the thread, 4 years later July 2006 (current). There now seems to be at least a minimum of interest, or at least distant intrigue and as long as you keep asking questions, I'll hang in and offer what I know.

For right now, though, I have appointments starting in 10 minutes. Bye for now.... but keep talking and bringing up your thoughts!

 

[Ekka]

Shish, took a while to read this one.

Hey TM, please post a pic of your device for working off if it is not a hitch and cost less than $30.

I was thinking Lockjack and Gri gri but they're way dearer.

I believe you have a device that you climb up and down on, it suffices as a work positioning device, so not a figure 8.

Cheers

 

[Climb020]

I use to climb the way you described Tom. It worked quite well for SRT. But then I wanted to compete so I had to learn to FL. I believe the reason they have FL in comps is jsut that it is the fastest way to enter a tree. And being we are production workers that fastest way is the preferred way. But FL isn't for everyone cause it sure beats you up like you said.
Only thing about FL comps that I hate is that damned prussik. My hands feel like they are gonna get carpletunnle after just 50 ft.

 

[SRT-Tech]

After talking with my friends we all agreed that the likely future of arbo SRT will be some variation of combining a friction hitch and a chunk of metal. What it will look like is for an arbo to discover. Like I said, the Unicender has changed the path. In time, something like that will have the best chance of becoming 'normal', not just for arbos but for all working rope technicians.

This is the SRT/DRT "HYBRID" i've been talking about...i use a Rescuecender instead of a Blakes.

 

[Tree Machine]

Hey TM, please post a pic of your device for working off if it is not a hitch and cost less than $30.

I was thinking Lockjack and Gri gri but they're way dearer.

I believe you have a device that you climb up and down on, it suffices as a work positioning device, so not a figure 8.

Cheers

Hi Ekka. No, it is not a device that you climb up and down on. I seperate those two tasks. There's a device that effectively and safely allows you to ascend a rope, and we all know it as an ascender. Very little friction, easy to place on and off the rope, even with one hand of you would make that sort of attempt (that's one of the criteria I use in trying out devices). I use an ascender to ascend. It is what they are made for and is pretty much all they do. They work exceedingly well for the purpose intended, so I have a few, the CMI, like Tom's the Petzl blue right hand and gold left hand ascenders and the one I use, the Kong dual. I also have a Petzl Croll, a Tibloc and a Pantin, all ascenders but they don't get much use. Then I have a rock exotica dualcender, and for my flipline, a micrograb. And a GriGri. And a ProTraxion which is a cammed pully that can be used as an ascender (I had to try it just once to see).

This is one of the big hangups is that the general arborist community feels the need to have one thing that covers both ascent and descent. The makers of the unicender have tried this and as I understand it works OK, though I have never tried one.

As far as the friction hitch and it's unique ability to get you up and down, that would be THE redeeming quality, that and it's self-locking. The downsides are many, whether using a traditional system, a split tail or an advanced hitch using dual-eyed tress cord.

In using mechanical devices, other than the unicender, the ascent / descent jobs are covered by different devices. Ascending with ascenders, and working the crown and abseiling with a chunk of metal that's been formed into some unique shape.

This is the big hang-up, I think, with arbos. We learned on a system that goes both ways, so a mechanical system that doesn't go both ways is somehow not acceptable. That's a mental barrier. You need to get up in the tree, remove the ascender, attach your piece and go to work. If you get in a spot where you have to ascend back up, clip on the ascender, remove the device and go back up. If a switchover is done somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds, you really shouldn't argue the point of having to do and un-do pieces. Generally speaking, after the ascent into the tree, the ascender doesn't get used again. It's tree climbing and work positioning and descent from there on.

A lot of guys are using ascenders to get into the tree, then they tie and set their friction hitch once up there. That seems to be OK.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Switching back and forth between ascent/descent systems as many times as I need to when working a tree would be problematic. In the gross view of working a tree I work from the top down but there are times when I'm working a portion of the tree that I need to move back up...sometimes just a little to reposition. Descenders rarely allow that to be done easily.

The place where traditional arbo systems really own the space is when working the outer third of the canopy. Lots of repositioning is required and most times the repo is just inches or fractions of an inch. Being able to do this one-handed makes the DdRT the best choice as far as I'm concerned. That is...until a better SRT ascent/descent system is found.

Choosing the best system for the job at hand is the challenge to a progressive climber.

 

[Tree Machine]

Switching back and forth between ascent/descent systems as many times as I need to when working a tree would be problematic.

My point earlier that once you're up in the tree, you're tree climbing, not ascending rope. Ascending the rope while up there should be rather infrequent. Hanging on the rope, on the other hand, or using the rope to assist you moving up to your next position, common and frequent. This can be done on ascender or descender.

In the gross view of working a tree I work from the top down but there are times when I'm working a portion of the tree that I need to move back up...sometimes just a little to reposition. Descenders rarely allow that to be done easily.

HUH? What????? This is the essence of what a friction control piece is supposed to do: control friction. The sole reason I use hardware is that it makes it easier than using a friction hitch. Easier on, easier off, easier to use, longer lasting. If a descender (a specific class of friction control hardware) makes it more of a pain than a hitch, I will not use it. Certain ascenders work better than others, I go for the ones that offer the most safety, most versatility and overall the most benefit. And I continue looking for something better. Same goes for the descent piece. I will try (and have tried) everything that comes my way, as not all pieces behave the same.

The place where traditional arbo systems really own the space is when working the outer third of the canopy. Lots of repositioning is required and most times the repo is just inches or fractions of an inch. Being able to do this one-handed makes the DdRT the best choice as far as I'm concerned. That is...until a better SRT ascent/descent system is found.

See, the outer canopy is where I enjoy direct friction the most. A small piece should allow you incremental tensioning/detensioning of your lifeline, one-handed and without looking. It should allow you to pass rope through with ease as you move about and if you were to stumble or fall the piece should either slow or stop you without you having to put your hand on it, and not let you drop like a rock. The requirements for a friction piece should equal and exceed the performance of a friction hitch, otherwise why not just use a friction hitch?

I prefer not having friction over top of a limb or crotch. It adds a variable that changes from tree to tree, bark type, limb diameter, rope diameter, wet limb/dry limb. In 2:1 that's what you get, as well as having to pass twice as much rope through your hitch to get the same amount of adjustment. With a piece, all friction is controlled right there off the front of your saddle, either one-handed or no-handed, in a 1:1 manner. It should all be very straight-forward, intuitive, safe and easy to use.

Choosing the best system for the job at hand is the challenge to a progressive climber.

Agreed, Tom, and I am still looking. I have used a variety of all kinds of different crown working / descent pieces, a few that are pretty good, but have not found one thing that blows all others away. Many of the more expensive ones I only try out at the vendor's booths at TCIA or a caving event, just to see how it works, feels, the time it takes to place and remove, etc. I may have never used a Petzl Stop descender, or a brake bar descender in a tree, but I can tell you the reasons why I won't.

 

[Grizzly]

I have somewhat of a dilemma concerning all these newfangled climbing tools. Most of what I have learned in the last 5-10 years about climbing and new gear has been through industry mags and of course the Sherrill catalogue. When conversing with other climbers in places like this, it seems like EVERYONE uses all this new stuff. But in REAL LIFE, I have only met one climber who uses a split-tail system, and I climbed twice as fast as him. I still climb with my old-fashioned Karl Kuemmerling belt, never had a 'biner attached to it and probably wouldn't know what to do with one if I had it. I can tie my tautline hitch without looking- one handed. I trust it with my life without even thinking about it. I have seen pics of some of the setups some guys use, and it is a mass of confusion and multiple ropes with multiple attachments. WAY too much stuff for me to worry about. I'll stick with one rope and one locking clip, thank you.

If I ever could actually work with someone as adept with all this new stuff as you guys seem to be, it might be different. But in my world, it isn't here. Why does this stuff only exist online and in magazines?

Well for me and climbing, I try to keep it simple and smoth. I typically spike up and down so i'm always hooked to the tree.
yet the lat take down I did, I was on a decent and I slid down the tree like a fire fighter pole and scraped up both of my arms to the max. I just got a precent and I'm trying to pick up on lock tieing up tree. Sort of like the way the palm slayer showed on his how to clip. (knot wise)
yet would lock tieing be benificial to use even on a take down?

 

[Grizzly]

My point earlier that once you're up in the tree, you're tree climbing, not ascending rope. Ascending the rope while up there should be rather infrequent. Hanging on the rope, on the other hand, or using the rope to assist you moving up to your next position, common and frequent. This can be done on ascender or descender.


HUH? What????? This is the essence of what a friction control piece is supposed to do: control friction. The sole reason I use hardware is that it makes it easier than using a friction hitch. Easier on, easier off, easier to use, longer lasting. If a descender (a specific class of friction control hardware) makes it more of a pain than a hitch, I will not use it. Certain ascenders work better than others, I go for the ones that offer the most safety, most versatility and overall the most benefit. And I continue looking for something better. Same goes for the descent piece. I will try (and have tried) everything that comes my way, as not all pieces behave the same.


See, the outer canopy is where I enjoy direct friction the most. A small piece should allow you incremental tensioning/detensioning of your lifeline, one-handed and without looking. It should allow you to pass rope through with ease as you move about and if you were to stumble or fall the piece should either slow or stop you without you having to put your hand on it, and not let you drop like a rock. The requirements for a friction piece should equal and exceed the performance of a friction hitch, otherwise why not just use a friction hitch?

I prefer not having friction over top of a limb or crotch. It adds a variable that changes from tree to tree, bark type, limb diameter, rope diameter, wet limb/dry limb. In 2:1 that's what you get, as well as having to pass twice as much rope through your hitch to get the same amount of adjustment. With a piece, all friction is controlled right there off the front of your saddle, either one-handed or no-handed, in a 1:1 manner. It should all be very straight-forward, intuitive, safe and easy to use.


Agreed, Tom, and I am still looking. I have used a variety of all kinds of different crown working / descent pieces, a few that are pretty good, but have not found one thing that blows all others away. Many of the more expensive ones I only try out at the vendor's booths at TCIA or a caving event, just to see how it works, feels, the time it takes to place and remove, etc. I may have never used a Petzl Stop descender, or a brake bar descender in a tree, but I can tell you the reasons why I won't.

Why not?
Is there too much do doing it or do you need to be a rocket scientist to do it fast enought to do your job faster.

 

[oldirty]

TreeMachine,

You need to get yourself to an ISA TCC to get a better frame of reference. You may be a big fish in your local pond but the TCC will show you there is a much bigger pond out there.

anyone else going to the TCC in Rhode Island this year?

 

[Ted-RI]

Oh hell yes. Its a hometown event. Providence is a lot of fun!!

 

[TreeTopKid]

anyone else going to the TCC in Rhode Island this year?

Yes Sir!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

This is an ancient thread!

The discussion of simple climbing systems will continue for ever.

What continues to amaze me is how firmly some climbers hold onto the notion, with HUGE pride, that the old way is the best just because of it's simplicity. Rubbish! If that were the case then we wouldn't be using this medium to discuss the issue. And...everyone would be back to using only landlines for their phones...no cell phones, to say nothing about PDA type phones. Be consistent...upgrade your climbing skills and tools along with everything else. There ARE great benefits to doing that.

I still have the black, Bell System wall phone that I grew up using. It has a real rotary dialer too. If the time comes to have a landline that phone will go back up on the wall, and wired to work, in my shop. But...my iPhone will be in my pocket with me all of the time!

Get to the ITCC. Then, you can properly compare how well a variety of climbing skills compare. At the end of the day you'll be able to see the spectrum of skills and range of technology used in the trees. A proper combination of skills and technology will keep climbers healthy and productive for many more years than traditional skills.