Decisions

[WV Wildman]

I've been reading non stop here and still cant decide the route I need to take.

I intend on milling some lumber but not boards, mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles. This wont be a job or source of income but merely a foray into something to keep me occupied.

The trouble I am having is deciding on whether to go the CSM route or buy a bandsaw mill along the lines of the Woodmizer LT-10

I have a 20 inch Alaska Mill and looking at a Stihl 460 for the CSM. If I go the CSM route I intend on picking up a 18 inch bandsaw for resaw work which will cut into the price difference by $800

Price difference is ofcourse roughly $2000 ($1200 if I buy a shop band saw for resaw) between the two choices but I can swing it either way. I have bad shoulders so the CSM is kind of looking like it may be a poor choice for me in that regard. Reading opinions here about the LT -10 is a tad discouraging especially when I keep reading about high dollar blade purchases.

My thought was that since I dont intend to do much milling for lumber the blade issue wont be as relevant but ofcourse once you start milling it appears you cant stop

Hopefully you guys can enlighten me to any errors in my line of thinking and help me spend my cash in a positive way

Thanks in advance!

 

[TraditionalTool]

The trouble I am having is deciding on whether to go the CSM route or buy a bandsaw mill along the lines of the Woodmizer LT-10

What about looking for a used bandmill, like a LumberMate 2000 or an LT-15?

A guy picked up a LumberMate 2000 from a post here recently on craigslist that was asking $2400. Not sure what he paid, he didn't say...

I have seen a few sawmills for sale in WV when I was looking for mine. Check out crazedlist.org to search multiple locales on craigslist.

Get way more used than you do new, if you can find something you like.

OTOH, some folks ask close to list price, and they don't sell, so go figure...asking high prices and knocking down a little at a time is a mistake for folks that want to sell on craigslist, most learn that the hard way...and don't sell in the end.

 

[huskyhank]

The questions you may not have answered yet is -- where will you get the wood? Do you have a way to move it or will you have to cut it where it lays?

I suggest a bigger saw than a 460 if you're mostly interested in milling with it and some longer rails for your mill. If Stihls are common and you have a good dealer in your area get a 660. The best wood (in my opinion) will be from larger logs if you have access to them. And I'd rather mill a big log than several small ones to get the same amount of wood. There is less set up time involved on one log.

Can you lift 50 pounds given the condition of your shoulders? If so, the mill won't be much problem. Once its in the wood you don't have to hold it up, you just push a little. Moving the slabs may be a bigger problem if your shoulders are getting worn out.

 

[BobL]

[EDIT] Looks like HH beat me to the punchline.

I've been reading non stop here and still cant decide the route I need to take.
I intend on milling some lumber but not boards, mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles. This wont be a job or source of income but merely a foray into something to keep me occupied.

Well this certainly will no longer be a problem for you.

Sorry can't comment on Woodmizer as I have never used one.

Re I have bad shoulders so the CSM is kind of looking like it may be a poor choice for me in that regard.
The milling part is rarely the problem - it's moving the logs, slabs and larger lumber that gives me the main aches and pains. If your shoulders are really bad and you don't have motorised assistance for moving slabs then maybe look for another hobby.

Once you know what you are doing with a CSM you can do this.

That's a 72 lb mill riding on a log by itself.
The slabs it cuts weigh at least double and triple that so lifting the mill is the easy bit

I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.

 

[WV Wildman]

I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully

I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help

I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. Ofcourse i've been around enough to know that usually what you intend to do ends up being alot different from what you end up doing so I am trying to really make this purchase count.

I also have several friends who own tree care businesses so I can get the wood cut down in length if I need to go get a few peices of something worth going after.

I geuss I know deep down that this will end up getting out of hand and my intended small scale hobby will escalate but my budget is $3000 and no more give or take a few hundred the wife dont know about

 

[TraditionalTool]

I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully

I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help

I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. Ofcourse i've been around enough to know that usually what you intend to do ends up being alot different from what you end up doing so I am trying to really make this purchase count.

I also have several friends who own tree care businesses so I can get the wood cut down in length if I need to go get a few peices of something worth going after.

I geuss I know deep down that this will end up getting out of hand and my intended small scale hobby will escalate but my budget is $3000 and no more give or take a few hundred the wife dont know about

Searching for sawmills in PA showed an Oscar 18 for sale in Bath NY for $1800. Look around, like I said, there was a LumberMate 2000 that the seller was asking $2400 recently. Guy bought it from NY, drove down to Washington, VA. Check this thread.

Lots of sawmills sit and don't sell, just look at the sawmill exchange, the prices are high and the sawmills don't sell. People convince themselves that their sawmills are worth more money by seeing others asking high prices. Again, they don't sell, they need to be priced at fair market value to sell.

Thing is that if you tell a guy who is asking $9800 that his sawmill is only worth $5k-$6k, even with all the extras, they don't want to believe it. A guy down in Arizona was asking $9800 for a LumberMate 2000 that has almost every accessory, he's been asking that price for months, at least 6 months now. I told him I didn't think it was worth $6k even, and he said he would only come down to $7800, bottom line. Bottom line is he's still got it and will have it for a while to come, IMO. Nobody pays close to retail for accessories, the used market doesn't work like that.

I think I got a fair price on my LumberMate recently, what I consider fair market value. $4k for one in good shape with a 23HP engine. Guys asking $9k-$10k are just not selling them.

 

[WV Wildman]

I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.

I have that as well in both shoulders along with arthritis and tendonitus....

Im only 39 so it sucks bigtime.

So a 660 with ??? bar

I have a shop full of mig and tig welders so mods arent an issue for making longer rails

 

[WV Wildman]

TT, thats pretty sound advice. I am in no real hurry so I can afford to wait and look. I do alot of traveling so maybe that is the route I will end up. My gut tells me the band saw mill would be alot easier for me and llow me to expand if I so chose but I lso understand I lose the protability I would have with a CSM

 

[mikeb1079]

hey wv, i think that in your situation with access to that much timber, bad shoulders, and (here's the key) machinery to move logs around, you should go with a used bandsaw mill. chainsaw milling has its advantages and can be really rewarding, but it is very strenuous (which i actually enjoy at times). it certainly taxes your back/shoulders/arms no matter how good your ergonomics are (not that bsmilling is easy). as tt has mentioned, if you're patient you can find a good deal on a woodmizer lt15 or similar for under 5k. i think that with the advantages of a bsm, especially with the amount of presumably high dollar timber you have access to in your part of the country (ie less waste of the bandsaw kerf and better finish on the cut) you'd be glad you went that route.
one thing you'll notice too, is that the more people hear you own a mill, the more folks will be wanting to purchase or trade you for your lumber or bring you some logs to mill. even if you do it on a small scale, folks are usually really intrigued by the idea and you may find yourself doing a little custom milling now and again. at least enough to keep the beer coming in.
cheers and good luck.

 

[huskyhank]

OK, here's my prescription:

660 or a Husky 395, with a 32 and a 42 inch bar, 3-4 chains for each bar, 36 inch Alaskan mill, chaps, helmet with ear and eye protection, files for sharpening, wedges, peavy or cant hook, etc. I think $2,000 will cover it.

Run it a while and if you like it, get another bigger saw of the same make (880 or 3120) your mill, bars and chains will work on the new saw. I love having two saws - taking one off the mill to make a few trimming cuts in the middle of cutting a log is a huge pain. If you don't like your new hobby, the saw and most of the gear you bought can be sold to recover lots of your costs.

 

[820wards]

Once you know what you are doing with a CSM you can do this.

I am a lazy SOB and have burstis in both shoulders but I prefer working by myself so I make things as easy as possible.[/QUOTE]



Bob,

Is that a remote control in your right hand?

jerry-

 

[TraditionalTool]

TT, thats pretty sound advice. I am in no real hurry so I can afford to wait and look. I do alot of traveling so maybe that is the route I will end up. My gut tells me the band saw mill would be alot easier for me and llow me to expand if I so chose but I lso understand I lose the protability I would have with a CSM

Wildman,

As others have pointed out there are certainly reasons for using a CSM, but from what you have said it doesn't sound like the fit. CSMs are noisy, not to mention pricey for the chainsaw needed to operate them. I think huskyhank has good numbers and to me, $2k, is a lot of money to spend on a CSM give what used bandsaw mills can be had for. If you can't get the logs to the bandsaw mill easily and need to cut the logs in the woods because of so, certainly you can't beat a CSM. However, that just is not the case for you, you have tractor(s) and your sons to help you.

Another approach is to buy a bandsaw mill kit, such as the ones that Linn sells, and with a bit of welding you can make your own, along with the bed/track to run it on. I have seen kits from Linn for about $1500 that include most of what you need, except the motor and track. Still, I would look for a well known used bandmill, they are around and available all the time.

The other thing is that you have time to think this over, you don't need to make a decision right away, but I would be surprised if you decided that a CSM was the better solution for you given the condition and situation. I saw an analogy which I believe someone posted here on ArboristSite, that the difference between a CSM and a bandmill is similar to dial-up internet compared to Broadband. I think that pretty much says it all.

 

[WV Wildman]

I think that is the route I will take. Thanks for the advice everyone and sorry for the typing...wireless keyboard sucks

 

[BobL]

The other thing is that you have time to think this over, you don't need to make a decision right away, but I would be surprised if you decided that a CSM was the better solution for you given the condition and situation. I saw an analogy which I believe someone posted here on ArboristSite, that the difference between a CSM and a bandmill is similar to dial-up internet compared to Broadband. I think that pretty much says it all.

Commercial operation where every second of time is money, or if he want lots of long lumber, in your softwoods, the BSM wins hands down - no question.

But what he wants is;
"I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. "
In another post he says "mainly slabs 2 to 4 inches and beams/mantles"

A 3' x 6' x 4'' slab is gonna weigh 300 lbs, the weight of a CS mill is peanuts compared to this. As he has a tractor he could even tote and lift his CS mill onto log rails with the tractor.

With such a short log he can setup quite an serious slope so milling will be zero effort.
Like this:

In terms of cutting time for slabs. I find setup time of log, sharpening, and stacking the slabs are really the rate determining steps, and the milling time is the minor component.
6 ft at 1 ft per minute on a CS mill is all of 6 minutes!.
Moving and stacking the slab and sharpening or swapping out chains will take longer than this, but by the end of a few days he will have more slabs than he can use - Well I do anyway ;-)

Also just as long as he's aware that smaller bandsaws like LT15 has max log diam of 28" so if he runs across even a 3ft wide log (could be nice for a table top) then a $5k bandsaw is going to struggle to make cuts that wide. yes you can roll the log and cut 12 or 14" boards no problem but he did say "slabs".

 

[TraditionalTool]

Bob,

You present some good points, wide slabs are a good one for a CSM.

I have 3 friends with CSMs, and while they have all used them, not one of them really likes them and in the end are looking for some type of bandmill or swinghead mill. All of them have substantial investments in the chainsaw as well as the mill itself. 2 of the 3 are using a 660.

That said, you do present some good points and those points are certainly worth considering for Wildman.

 

[BobL]

That said, you do present some good points and those points are certainly worth considering for Wildman.

Yeah these things can be quite personal and linked to an individuals progress through their interests. Just three years ago I started out milling with a 50cc McCulloch to access unusual timber to make wood work tools ie small pieces of wood. I now have 8 chainsaws, 4 - 50 cc or less toys, and 4 real (milling) saws and 3 CS mills and a heap of accessories. Although I have only paid actual $ for 3 of my CS I still have a significant investment in my milling gear. I am inherently interested in making and using CS mills and modifying them to get them working better. Some people shake their head when I say it wouldn't worry me too much if all the wood I have milled was to disappear as I have thoroughly enjoyed the process and would do it all again tomorrow.

Over about 3 years with bursitis in both shoulders (now almost cured) I have milled over 120 logs (mostly with my hardworking but wonderful 076) and during that time have actually used to make something useful a grand total of 1/8th of one log! So now I have more wood than I can poke a stick at and definitely more wood than I will ever use in my lifetime. I never intended to sell any of this wood but will have to clear some, as we are running out of space at the milling yard. I am still intensely interested in milling - by CS mill or any other mechanisms. If I was going to expand my milling operations, for our hardwoods I would look at a swing mill, also with a 6 ft slabber attachment. However, as I have no room at my place to store such a beast, and little place left to stack timber I am very ,satisfied with 3 CS mills and 4 saws for now. Although I have designs for several more CS mills in my head I am playing with, and may eventually make one or two just for fun.

Most people who give up on CS mills appear to never really learned to set up and sharpen chains properly and don't sharpen them often enough when milling. I sharpened my first chain nearly 50 years ago but never really learned out to do it fast and effectively with progressive raker setting until about a year ago. This, and some other CS mill mods like wheels and milling on slopes is probably why I can now auto cut and sit back and watch the saw glide down the log, although I prefer to be close up and feeling the saw and chain cut the wood. I think the feel of the saw is important, but as I said I'm physically lazy and wouldn't be doing this if I was raising a sweat. I break out in a sweat just looking as photos of people pushing their saws on their knees in the mud and sawdust, or showering themselves with saw dust using minimills. It just doesn't have to be like that and I learned most of that from some excellent operators who are still on or used to frequent this forum.

I see BS mills working real well for your timbers, commercial operations and if someone wants to make lots of lumber but these operators still need a CS of some kind anyway. For occasional users who will also need a CS, a simple CS mill is not a large investment especially as they are dead easy to make and well tuned and set up they are fun to use.

 

[SilverBox]

I own 20 acres, have access to over 7000 private acres so wood is not an issue thankfully

I have tractors with buckets to help do some lifting and two strong sons that can help

I dont intend to do any lengths much longer then say 6 feet, my main goal is table slabs, bench slabs etc. Ofcourse i've been around enough to know that usually what you intend to do ends up being alot different from what you end up doing so I am trying to really make this purchase count.

I also have several friends who own tree care businesses so I can get the wood cut down in length if I need to go get a few peices of something worth going after.

I geuss I know deep down that this will end up getting out of hand and my intended small scale hobby will escalate but my budget is $3000 and no more give or take a few hundred the wife dont know about

I vote for an Alaskan.

 

[Andrew96]

Wildman...everyone has already said but I'll say it again. I feel a csm's strong points are it's portability (cut the log where it sits..leave the mess, noise, take the slabs)...ease at which it can cut super wide interesting stuff when you come across it. Of course..at the expense of a more physical day (I assume..never played with a BSM) and a larger kerf (though for thicker slabs who cares).
I would suggest you make your own alaskan (you'd have fun doing that..already have the tools)..find the largest saw of your favourite brand, stick the two together and start with something. You don't want to be an internet miller (all talk no milling...which is how I feel right now until the weather turns).

 

[WV Wildman]

Lots of good ideas for sure, alot to take in

I have other saws, been in the woods since I was in diapers and my pop used to put a blanket in a clothes basket and take me cutting. He worked for Pepco as a cutter for many years after Vietnam. Taught me to run a saw but wouldnt teach me to fell trees. I geuss he saw to many things go wrong and tried to keep me away from it but over the years I have been known to do some good work when required. I recently lost a friend who had a tree come back on him so this years cutting will be done with nervous hands. Its a job that has to be done as all we heat with is wood so the annual 6 or 8 cords of wood is mandatory.

I still see valid points to both types of mill, but the ease of the BSM has a lure for me that i'm having trouble overcoming. Slabs are the target but I know dang well that slabs would lead to a few fence posts that would lead to a few boards ...maybe a new deck or shed for the homestead and on and on. I geuss the biggest kick in the pants is the instant outlay of $3k versus saving a grand or so.....

As far as being dedicated(all talk no work), well I started out with a $200 hobby powdercoating kit and now have my own business with well over $100k in equipment, started out with a basic photography course and now get paid to travel the country every other weekend to shoot and good lord I know I have damn near $50k in gear but everything is paid for. It is all I do and supports a family of four so I think I have a knack for making things work to my advantage haha. A lathe purchased at Christmas has me making game calls and I cant make enough of them, they sell as fast as they are done(another reasonf or finding attractive wood). The slab idea just struck me one day and to be honest, I already have people lining up wanting slabs so before the first log is milled I kind of know it will grow into something else that will make me some extra cash but the main idea is still to obtain slabs for myself. And with the drying and curing process of the wood its not an overnight deal so maybe I can just enjoy this for awhile before I get consumed with making a few coins here and there I already have the Tenon cutters and usual woodworking tools needed, we are just down to this decision on which way to roll. I still have zero intentions on doing a bunch of mill work for others beyond some slabs but it sure sounds nice to be able to pull some lumber for my own use now and then.

I know you fellers who live by the CSM state it can be fairly easy, but for someone who has never used one, the BSM appears to have a huge edge over it for someone who would rather replace a blade and move on without the hassle of the mill and service of the chainsaw (not that the engine for a BSM doesnt require it as well) My oldest son races motocross and cross country so Im fully versed on how something needs proper servicing especially when turning 13,000 rpm! I just dont know if I want that to deal with.

If the economy was better, I would probably be posting pictures of both set ups just to cover anything I may encounter but these days every penny counts but may end up being the end of the means when all is said in done. Sorry for the book of a response, but I figure the more you that do this know the better direction you can steer me and I surely appreciate it!

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I still see valid points to both types of mill, but the ease of the BSM has a lure for me that i'm having trouble overcoming. Slabs are the target

IF that is true, you can forget any BSM that is small. First of all, the distance between the guides probably won't be as wide as you want your slabs to be, but most of all, those small mills aren't built to be maxed out all the time, and are under powered for that use.

I've sawn on a LT10, and personally, i didn't think much of it at all. The LL24 the Norwood has, is waaaaaaaaaaay more saw for about the same money.

Neither the LL24 or the LT10 are anywhere near the saw a LT15 is, or better yet a later Lumbermate 2000.

If you "really are" going to stay with shorter logs, and you want to make full width slabs, you have no choise but to get a BIG powerhead and a long bar, and live with all the back breaking work it takes to run it.

Rob