Getting new well tanks - anything I should add?

[Blue Oaks]

Guys,

I'm getting two new poly 3000 gallon tanks installed soon. They'll be replacing a single 5000 gallon steel tank that is probably 50 years old. Access to the pad is limited, and that's why I'm doing two tanks I can roll up the hill to the site. The pad is about 30 vertical feet above the ground level of the house, and probably 90 feet away as you walk. The house has a pressure pump and tank that works pretty well.

What would you recommend in terms of any features at the tank area? Right now I'm planning on having a single 3" male NPT port on a ball valve for fire use. I can gravity feed down the hill to my driveway where I keep a Type 6 Engine (Brush Rig) that I can pump high pressure water anywhere in the neighborhood.

Just wondering if there's any features or materials you'd recommend I use. The plan is to use mostly UV resistant grey PVC for the connections except for the fire nipple. That will be galvanized steel.

 

[holeycow]

your plastic tanks, if exposed to the sun, I doubt will last anywhere near 50 years.

I've buried a couple of heavy culverts vertically, one for 30 years so far that have shown no degrading whatsoever. Galvanized heavy-wall culverts with galvanized sheet metal covers and poured concrete bottoms. We use these for fresh water, but not drinking water, for the most part. I don't know the gauge of the steel in the culverts, but they are heavy and don't easily deform. I've bought several culverts for various uses over the years. Sometimes culverts get formed to the wrong size. They end up in culvert supplier's "boneyards" and can be bought for 1/2 price or less..A custom cover at a sheet-metal fab shop (with a hatch, fill-hole, or whatever you need built-in), a poured concrete bottom and you're good.

I can't see why this same method couldn't be used above-ground. My water tanks are about 3600 gallons each.

A shiny steel container will take on far less heat from the sun than a translucent or black poly tank.

anyway, good luck with your install!

PS, the reason mine are buried is because winter is cold here, otherwise I wouldn't have excavated.

perhaps you are too far planned to consider steel again. Just thought I'd throw another option out there.

brass fittings, valves, components will last longer than galvanized, as a rule.

 

[Del_]

your plastic tanks, if exposed to the sun, I doubt will last anywhere near 50 years.

I grow English ivy on my tanks.

Keeps off the sun.

 

[arathol]

your plastic tanks, if exposed to the sun, I doubt will last anywhere near 50 years.

Not even close...Where I used to work we stored liquid calcium chloride in yellow 3k and 5k gallon poly tanks. After a couple years the tanks started to bulge out at the bottom, some were starting to lean over, a couple had out right failures where the lower drain valve came out of the tank wall. One 3k gallon tank failing 30 feet uphill from your house could be a catastrophic event, let alone two. You do have some sort of containment to prevent being flooded out in case of a failure....right? Some of the fittings were gray PVC and those failed pretty regularly. I had to replace a lot of the PVC parts in those systems. The 3" Banjo ball valves and black polypropylene fittings were far more durable. Also, the hoses that are generally used with these poly tanks are pretty susceptible to UV damage.
I would imagine that those plastic tanks would promote algae growth also....

 

[Blue Oaks]

your plastic tanks, if exposed to the sun, I doubt will last anywhere near 50 years.

I've buried a couple of heavy culverts vertically, one for 30 years so far that have shown no degrading whatsoever. Galvanized heavy-wall culverts with galvanized sheet metal covers and poured concrete bottoms. We use these for fresh water, but not drinking water, for the most part. I don't know the gauge of the steel in the culverts, but they are heavy and don't easily deform. I've bought several culverts for various uses over the years. Sometimes culverts get formed to the wrong size. They end up in culvert supplier's "boneyards" and can be bought for 1/2 price or less..A custom cover at a sheet-metal fab shop (with a hatch, fill-hole, or whatever you need built-in), a poured concrete bottom and you're good.

I can't see why this same method couldn't be used above-ground. My water tanks are about 3600 gallons each.

A shiny steel container will take on far less heat from the sun than a translucent or black poly tank.

anyway, good luck with your install!

PS, the reason mine are buried is because winter is cold here, otherwise I wouldn't have excavated.

perhaps you are too far planned to consider steel again. Just thought I'd throw another option out there.

brass fittings, valves, components will last longer than galvanized, as a rule.

Thanks for the input. Everyone around here uses the poly tanks at this point. I haven't seen a new steel tank, ever. Interesting use of the culver pipes. I've been kicking around the idea of using some large DIA, but short length culverts for access tubes to the septic tank. Right now the access "retainers" are pressure treated lumber, with wooden lids with comp shingles on top. I'm thinking of using some culvert pipe and "manhole covers" to shore up the whole assembly and allow me to use the area as a patio.

I grow English ivy on my tanks.

Keeps off the sun.

Not a bad idea. In my case, I have Blue Oaks (hence the avatar name) that shade the area almost all day in the summer and all but a few hours a day in the winter.

Not even close...Where I used to work we stored liquid calcium chloride in yellow 3k and 5k gallon poly tanks. After a couple years the tanks started to bulge out at the bottom, some were starting to lean over, a couple had out right failures where the lower drain valve came out of the tank wall. One 3k gallon tank failing 30 feet uphill from your house could be a catastrophic event, let alone two. You do have some sort of containment to prevent being flooded out in case of a failure....right? Some of the fittings were gray PVC and those failed pretty regularly. I had to replace a lot of the PVC parts in those systems. The 3" Banjo ball valves and black polypropylene fittings were far more durable. Also, the hoses that are generally used with these poly tanks are pretty susceptible to UV damage.
I would imagine that those plastic tanks would promote algae growth also....

Thanks for the input. As stated above, everyone uses these heavy duty poly tanks around here and they last a long time. I don't need them to last 50 years, as I'm on a 5 year plan to move to a bigger, better lot with a bigger, better house and a BIG SHOP on much flatter ground. I know those tanks last at least 20 years around here.

I see what you mean about 3k gallons of water being let go in an instant. I think it'd make a mess but spare the house. Ironically, I did have 4500 gallons or so leak out overnight once. Every gallon went into a wet spot in the gravely dirt about 4 feet in DIA. It was shocking that all that water would soak in that little ground. I had left a hose running on an Oleander, and forgot until the next morning.

I'll for sure be having them put brass ball valves in place. I hate plastic ball valves.

As far as algae, they don't allow UV through so there is little to no algae growth. Along with the Blue Oaks' canopy, I'm not concerned about it.

One thing I remembered I want and will be sure to have is a standard hose spigot.

 

[arathol]

If you want a hose attachment point, you can use a Banjo poly ball valve with cam lock fittings so you can easily attach a large hose or a reducer with garden hose threads. The fewer holes you put in the tank the better.

 

[Blue Oaks]

If you want a hose attachment point, you can use a Banjo poly ball valve with cam lock fittings so you can easily attach a large hose or a reducer with garden hose threads. The fewer holes you put in the tank the better.

Good point about having fewer holes. I was thinking a T into a 1" NPT to run a garden hose. However, now that I think about it I probably have all the reducers I need "in stock" to go from the 3" NPT male pipe down to garden hose. Probably a good idea to open that 3" ball valve from time to time anyway to keep it free.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

The tank is for fire fighting? Filled by rain?

 

[Blue Oaks]

The tank is for fire fighting? Filled by rain?

The tanks are for the house water supply. They'll double as an emergency source of water in a fire. They'll be filled directly from the well.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

The tanks are for the house water supply. They'll double as an emergency source of water in a fire. They'll be filled directly from the well.

There a reason a normal ~40 gallon pressurized well tank isn't used? The well very low flow?
I wouldn't trust drinking water stored above ground outdoors in a homebrew storage tank.

 

[Blue Oaks]

There a reason a normal ~40 gallon pressurized well tank isn't used? The well very low flow?
I wouldn't trust drinking water stored above ground outdoors in a homebrew storage tank.

Good question. I don't think the well flows enough on a continuous basis to meet short term demands. The tanks gravity flow down to the house where I have a pressure pump set from 30-50 PSI and a pressure vessel. Pretty much everyone drinks the well water stored like this around here. I drink bottled water though. The water is certainly clean enough to shower and wash dishes and clothes.

My other current project is putting in a new water softener. Just tonight I've been cutting copper pipe and laying out my manifold system on my dining room table. I'm incorporating several ball valves to allow servicing the filter / softener / water heater with the ability to bypass the softener.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Good question. I don't think the well flows enough on a continuous basis to meet short term demands. The tanks gravity flow down to the house where I have a pressure pump set from 30-50 PSI and a pressure vessel. Pretty much everyone drinks the well water stored like this around here. I drink bottled water though. The water is certainly clean enough to shower and wash dishes and clothes.

My other current project is putting in a new water softener. Just tonight I've been cutting copper pipe and laying out my manifold system on my dining room table. I'm incorporating several ball valves to allow servicing the filter / softener / water heater with the ability to bypass the softener.

Many water softeners have a built in valve to allow bypass.


I just shut the water to my house off, drain the filter housing, replace filter and turn the water back on.

A bypass isn't a horrible idea, just there wasn't much room or enough reason for me to add extra piping. All my water lines are 1", so valves and fittings get a bit pricey too.

 

[sean donato]

When I added the backflow filter to our water system, I made sure I replaced the whole house filter housing with a model that had bypass built in. Makes changing the filter much easier.

 

[medalist]

Mmm...I just finished replacing every piece of copper in a farmhouse in Virginia that was suffering from pinholes ans so thin a tubing cutter would collapse it.
I replumbed with PEX and plastic fittings because the metal fittings for PEX also corroded terribly.
Moral of this story is test your water before plumbing.

 

[jimrb]

My copper pipes were depositing green everywhere. Acid water from the well. I added a calcite bed to bump up the PH. One of my co-workers I think was on city water and had to replace all their copper plumbing.

 

[ericm979]

Many of the counties in the greater Silicon Valley area have requirements for tank size, hydrant location etc for rural homes which may be a factor for your planned buildings. I.e more water is required when the total sq ft exceeds thresholds. Also in some of those counties current code requires two tanks, one for household use one for the fire hydrant, both fed off the same well. If you have not checked your counties current coded and talked to the planning dept to clear up any questions you should do so.

My county wants a 4" pipe to a hydrant with a standard 2.5" NPT fitting. Tank sizes can get quite large for big houses (or house + shop). At least they don't require interior sprinklers for a detached shop.

 

[Blue Oaks]

Many of the counties in the greater Silicon Valley area have requirements for tank size, hydrant location etc for rural homes which may be a factor for your planned buildings. I.e more water is required when the total sq ft exceeds thresholds. Also in some of those counties current code requires two tanks, one for household use one for the fire hydrant, both fed off the same well. If you have not checked your counties current coded and talked to the planning dept to clear up any questions you should do so.

My county wants a 4" pipe to a hydrant with a standard 2.5" NPT fitting. Tank sizes can get quite large for big houses (or house + shop). At least they don't require interior sprinklers for a detached shop.

Thanks Eric. Since I'm not planning on adding any buildings, I'm not going to worry about adding more water than going from the single 5k to the dual 3k's. Plus, my next door neighbor has I think 15k gallons on the hill behind his house. His house was build about 40 years after mine so he's got two fire hydrants with the 2.5" NH fittings for fire hoses. Ironically, I responded to a 911 page last night around midnight to their house. I thought the address sounded familiar and when I googled it the distance from me was 150 feet! Turns out the woman had a kidney infection and was having severe pains.

It's a short reach from one of those hydrants next door to where I park one of our Type 6 engines at my house, so tying into his water would be even easier than tying into mine. The 3 cyl diesel engine driving the pump on the Type 6 will put out 200 PSI through the 1.5" hoses and we've tested it with 600 feet of hose with about a 75' elevation gain.

Having an un-permitted cottage on my property, there's really no sense in calling the county about anything IMO.

Here's the Type 6 that is stationed at my house. It's sister engine (with sequential VINs) is the R6 rig shown behind it. It's now stationed about 5 miles up the road.

 

[ElevatorGuy]

Thanks Eric. Since I'm not planning on adding any buildings, I'm not going to worry about adding more water than going from the single 5k to the dual 3k's. Plus, my next door neighbor has I think 15k gallons on the hill behind his house. His house was build about 40 years after mine so he's got two fire hydrants with the 2.5" NH fittings for fire hoses. Ironically, I responded to a 911 page last night around midnight to their house. I thought the address sounded familiar and when I googled it the distance from me was 150 feet! Turns out the woman had a kidney infection and was having severe pains.

It's a short reach from one of those hydrants next door to where I park one of our Type 6 engines at my house, so tying into his water would be even easier than tying into mine. The 3 cyl diesel engine driving the pump on the Type 6 will put out 200 PSI through the 1.5" hoses and we've tested it with 600 feet of hose with about a 75' elevation gain.

Having an un-permitted cottage on my property, there's really no sense in calling the county about anything IMO.

Here's the Type 6 that is stationed at my house. It's sister engine (with sequential VINs) is the R6 rig shown behind it. It's now stationed about 5 miles up the road.

I’m kinda surprised to see trucks that old still in service. What’s the life cycle your department uses? Those trucks are late 80s to early 90s.

 

[AlterEgo]

And in very good shape.

i can't imagine a need for ever replacing a well maintained vehicle in that california climate.

 

[Blue Oaks]

Those rigs are brand new to us. They' are 1988 model year trucks. I have a friend in San Jose Search and Rescue who asked if we wanted them. S&R just doesn't do any firefighting and these rigs are not well suited for transporting a patient. We paid $1 to cover both. As you can imagine, we were ecstatic to get them. Our other engines are a couple of old Dept of Agriculture Water Tenders and a couple of mid eighties Type 3's. None of those are very well suited for the Eastern slope of the Santa Cruz Mountains where we are located.

Some years our budget is around $10k for everything. Some years like the couple moving forward we'll have a lot more due to a FEMA SAFER Grant.

Here's a cool picture of our Upper Station during the Loma Fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loma_Fire This is on one of the ridgelines in the Santa Cruz Mountains. It takes me about an hour and fifteen minutes to drive there, even though it's probably only 15 miles away as the crow flies. We also have a Lower Station which is about a ten minute drive up my road.

Also a good pic of the Type 6 Brush Rigs during a small fire this summer.