brick wall #7

**Del_** · 05-09-2003, 08:03 AM

I believe all religions share the same orgin....... they are all created by humans.

I think it is natural for humans to see the world around them and to be overwhelmed by it's complexity. It's natural to seek an explaination for reality and it's natural to create religions...just look at the numbers.

God doesn't forgive gays because god doesn't forgive anybody. God is something we humans have created and we've created god in our own image. Not the other way around.

If superstition helps you sleep at night you have a lot of company. If repeteing what you've grown up hearing from the pulpit makes you feel like you've got some special grip on reality ......you again have a lot of company.

If you base your salvation on the fact of someone rising from the dead and pushing a rock out of the way when no one was looking some 2,000 years ago........

If you feel god is anti evolution.......

Just evolve a little. We are waiting for you.

Dan Nelson
Auburn GA

**oakwilt** · 05-09-2003, 08:44 AM

Wow. A voice of reason.

Dan, you must've had some experience with reality.

Oak

**mquinn** · 05-09-2003, 09:01 AM

I think it is natural for humans to see the world around them and to be overwhelmed by it's complexity. It's natural to seek an explaination for reality and it's natural to create religions

yes, and a fluid, dynamic world in which one is responsible for his/her own actions and decisions can be daunting. without a rule book to reference, one has to be continually investigating himself and his beliefs and how they actually relate to the rest of the world, constantly making adjustments for new information and input. it's definitely not the easy way, and often very uncomfortable.

**mquinn** · 05-09-2003, 09:05 AM

**eyolf** · 05-09-2003, 09:19 PM

Nice post, that last, MQ. And it would be cogent, save for one inescapable fact...only a few of us have put any real distance between ourselves and the rule of "might makes right". Then again, maybe that's your real point; subtlety isn't one of my virtues but it may be yours. If so, artful guidance, MQ.

If I don't buy into the ...well, something, I will have defaulted into "me first". Without it the human race is doomed...religion ties us together, reinforces community, provides direction and focus, etc. I think we're 30 or 40 billion evolutionary years away from dispensing with religion, or it's cheap substitute, patriotism.

Even if I entertain my doubts and fears about religion, I support my church and remain an active member in it. The local biker clubs, skinheads, and the republican party caucus don't have potlucks or organize a weekly child-care/mass indoctrination session that teaches kids to solve conflicts peacefully. My church does.

Some of us have talked with seeming authority on the bible, interpreting it for the rest. Let us consider the OT book of Ecclestiastes; the bible's own commentary upon itself and the human condition.

I'll wait while the rest of us read it...I'm sure a few will enjoy refeshing themselves before we renew our exegetical foray.

**eyolf** · 05-09-2003, 09:37 PM

OK, now that you've looked at it, jump ahead to Ecc. 12:5, the last line: (Solomon is talking about death and the meaning of one's life) "then man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. (v6) Remember him, before the silver cord is broken, (and more death imagery)...and the dust returns to the ground it came from.

Solomon is saying: "enjoy your friends and your neighbors, revere and honor them, be in community with them. Love your life, love your family and love yourself...because that's all there is my friend". Further (and all through, for those who jumped ahead and didn't read) Solomon says: "meaningless, meaningless...all is meaningless", meaning of course: "don't worry, be happy"

Just like Jesus would say 950 years later.

**ORclimber** · 05-09-2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by mquinn
just a little interesting tidbit....not only do we have the world's biggest guns....

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/politics_pop/index.html

So, Japan and Germany with the lowest(relatively) paid executives make the best cars. American executives get paid 475 times the average worker and the cars suck. I agree that business owners should be rewarded if they succeed, but something is out of whack here.

**mquinn** · 05-09-2003, 10:40 PM

eyolf - are you old enough to remember the byrds' "turn, turn, turn"?

funny you should mention ecclesiastes - that's my favorite book, and one that perhaps comes closest to a philosophy i might embrace. i still can't go along with the god's judgment part - but no matter, as my answer to that would be that i AM god.

(okay, well i kinda like song of solomon, too, but you probably figured i might like a love song - well, actually i can't even say i'm sure he is offering a compliment when he says, "your hair is like a flock of goats" - but since MINE kind of IS - hey...)

i really don't read the bible any more, although just a couple days ago i experienced a strange flashback to one recent october that caused me to read numbers. holy moly. i'm trying to forget that book again.

shakespeare and buddhists as well express similar ideas as are found in ecclesiastes (duality, everything has its time, all is vanity, and there is nothing new under the sun)- philosophies that fit into what is commonly called the ancient or perennial wisdom. doesn't have to be from the bible. didn't originate there. sometimes referred to as 'universal mind' or 'collective consciousness'. belongs to everyone.

only a few of us have put any real distance between ourselves and the rule of "might makes right"

uh-huh. somebody said a bit earlier - evolve, we'll be waiting for you. although by all current appearances it would seem we are not evolving at all, i think we are - not all at the same rate perhaps, but by the theory of the hundredth monkey (critical mass) and given a universal mind, i think that we are all bound to eventually pass through the same general evolutionary gateways. what i suspect at this point is that there is a genetic component involved, and not one that is tied to race, but rather to the variations in braiding of dna - something that can change according to an individual's emotional experiences, and therefore is independent of familial genetics.

Some of us have talked with seeming authority on the bible, interpreting it for the rest.

well, actually 'authority' is an interesting term. broadly speaking, and again going back to universal mind, we are all authorities, and i am willing to allow everyone the right of interpreting any and all non-empirical information. and if you get right down to it, even though on a practical daily level i might be expected to argue 'factual' information, in the big picture, i'll even admit THAT to the realm of subjectivity. it just depends on how many levels (dimensions) you can perceive. and right now, most humans are still only able to perceive 3-D.

**mquinn** · 05-09-2003, 10:58 PM

American executives get paid 475 times the average worker and the cars suck. I agree that business owners should be rewarded if they succeed, but something is out of whack here.

i'd have to agree with you there. and i wonder what it will be next year. i don't have the numbers at my fingertips (and would be loathe to have to look it up at this point), but from the information i have seen, that disparity has been increasing at a staggering rate - something like as little as 10 years ago it was considerably less, and each year the gap has grown far wider far faster.

the secretary at work used to complain about how much the boss makes (and doesn't do anything for - and she's right about that part - of course he doesn't make 500 times more than she does), and i always told her it shouldn't be any concern to her, as he took a different path to get where he is, he has different responsibilities, and at any rate - even if they didn't give him that much money, they wouldn't give the leftover to her. but greed seems to be rampant, and it makes for a lot of ugliness in relationships, which in my mind are what we're here about in the first place. and what bothers me a whole lot more than the pay differential is the attitude of managers/bosses who see the employees not as people but as position fillers. business is business, eh? and the bottom line is the bottom line.

genetically altered monkeys. an experiment gone bad.

**ORclimber** · 05-10-2003, 07:31 AM

Here's my favorite quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

"Success: To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intellegent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!"

It's titled "Success" and there's nothing in there about making a pile of money. I don't think the people in this country who run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to make big$ to pay their big bills have succeeded. I think greed in this country is like cancer, it keeps consuming more and more people. The rich keep getting richer and the poor want what the rich have. The problem is that the material things the rich have aren't worth the stuggle. Rich people still get divorced, get hooked on drugs, kill themselves, and go to jail.

**eyolf** · 05-10-2003, 08:01 AM

MQ:

remember the byrds' "turn, turn, turn"?

Well, sort of. When that song was on the charts I was only semi-conscious of the world outside my own little milleau. I did later learn who Roger McGuinn, Chris Hillman and all those guys were, even to the point that I found out Pete Seeger had written the song years earlier.

Little boxes, made of ticky-tacky... some thought little of the song, as it offerred, like ecclesiastes, little hope. A catchy tune, clever arrangement, but no substance. Even McGuinn was supposed to have had his doubts.

shakespeare and buddhists as well express similar ideas as are found in ecclesiastes

Right-O, MQ. Actually, there is a common thread of civility running through most religions. We have seen the rise and fall of some religions that chose to disregard that theme (Naziism, e.g.), and I suppose that there were variants stretching back into pre-history that we know not. Go with what works, and all that.

Authority...what is an authority? Kinda like a consultant...he or she is from out of town and very likely has a reputation based on the word of others that are embarassed to admit that they overlooked a simple solution. The authority says "I'm an authority", lines up a few references from people that liked what he had to say...even if it was all pap and rehash.

still only able to perceive 3-D.

I'd argue that point. When under stress, sometimes I default into seeing things 2-D; black and white, rigid opposites. I think lots of people struggle with that, some doing better than others at overcoming their tendencies to move into the "fight or flight" mode.

And then some don't try. Pity.

**Bob Wulkowicz** · 05-10-2003, 10:34 PM

Mquinn,

My compliments.

You've shown,

Build it and they will think.

and in the collery,

The proof is in the puddinheads, even Big C and Big D were wandering toward coherence.

Never understimate a woman with a lot of time on her hands.

Impressive,,, truly impressive...

Bob Wulkowicz

**oakwilt** · 05-11-2003, 12:46 AM

Scout,
no numbers for now, just tunes.

To fly away again after just getting back. It's numbing my soul.

Keep growing deeper as we age longer and shrink physically while we reach farther, okay? Thanks. Doin' good there.

Redeye.

**Cicero** · 05-11-2003, 01:48 AM

Mquinn, thank you for another oratory which only shows your bitterness for the large business. Is this due to your own failures??

I will give you that you admit you dont have the numbers at your fingertips but I always expect that with you...it isnt something new. I just now wonder if you will drop your critizism of GWB now that you "agree" that the disparity between top execs and floor employees is growing at a staggering rate. Like 10 years ago it was considerably less...Now correct me if I am wrong but was not the majority of the past ten years the Clinton years?? Oh gee that would be ignorant to think that Clinton was not for big business as he was caught in his own questionable business dealings?

I submit that if you would work as hard as most top execs and invest the resources they do that you could understand why they make more than the 9 to 5 employee. But then again most 9 to 5 employees dont want to work that hard, or have the required intelligence to excel.

You all need to quit crying about how unfair this country is and work a little harder or a little smarter. You might find you are happy with the results. Like most things you get out of them what you put in. Quit trying to blame your short comings on someone else.

Please would any one of you babbling about the poor working, please provide some evidence of your arguements other than emotion. Show me where the rich are not paying their share. You know what? You cant! Because that would require fact, and since the facts say they do, your arguement will be a little weak.

Sure they have some loopholes and ways to shed some liability, but at the end of the day they pay our tax burden.

**mquinn** · 05-11-2003, 06:49 AM

no numbers for now, just tunes.

always tunes. but....

numbers IS tunes. remember? october 2001....they pushed....cabin pressure....

numbers. tea for the tillerman.

that cat!

(redeye better'n pinkeye innit?)

brewing. (a witch's brew)