Spiking Palms

I just read the "Why I Am Charging $10" thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4492

Decided to start a new one since that one was so long. In Hawaii, spiking coconut palms is an accepted method of climbing them for trimming and all tree companies here do it. Most cannot be accessed by a bucket truck and those suggesting the use of a ladder, well how short are the palms you are doing??? Many here are 60 ft. or taller. I have done thousands of coconut palms. I charge between $30 to $125 a palm, depending upon amount of growth, location and height. My average palm charge is $37.50 for a 50 ft. with 6 months of growth. I use a cane knife for cocos, many guys are starting to use chainsaws, but the fiber clogs them up and the final job is not as clean and neat, not to mention all the sawdust. Using a chainsaw on cocos at the resorts are unacceptable. Too much sawdust and too much noise. My average time to trim a coconut palm with 6 months growth with a cane knife is 5 minutes. I have been timed as fast as 3 min. 47 sec. up and down. If SpikedSupra was doing coconuts and they did not have more than 6 months of growth on them and it was all a free drop, $10 is a decent price, although I charge $15 for cut and free drop, no hauling. $20 to $25 a tree if I have to cut, hold and toss the fronds and other debris to avoid understory damage. I would like to know how other guys trimming palms are doing so if they are too high for a ladder and cannot be reached by a bucket.

Please don't think I am a lowballer, quick buck artist. I am not new in this business, started in 1984, I am a certified arborist WC2191A, and have more work than I can handle. Doing a job today where my bid was $890 and the largest tree company here bid $600 for pruning a mango tree. New customer told me they went with me because of my explanation of how I was going to do it and my reputation.

TREETX,
You did not answer my question. How do you climb palms that are too tall for a ladder or use cannot use bucket truck? Read my post...ALL tree companies here use spikes to climb coconut palms, I did not say trees. I DO NOT spike other kinds of trees unless it is a removal. FYI, I do not top trees. I have turned down jobs where the owner wanted the trees topped.

If you think I am a HACK and want to check on my reputation here, I will be glad to send you at least 50 commercial, government and residential references.

FYI AGAIN - I don't think you are a hack. You sound quite established and probably have a lot to offer to this site.

I was merely referring to the fact that spiking TREES doesn't sound too professional.

I wish I had a solution to offer you based on experience. Truth is I don't. While I have worked in 3 countries on 2 continents, I have never worked in the tropics.

There have been other threads about getting into palms w/out a ladder or spikes. Hopefully some of those guys will chime in.

When I first started doing tree work and was not as informed as I am now, I drove down to the Yucatan and Belize where I spiked some Cocos out of ignorance. I do recall them being very juicy and they dripped from where I spiked them. That can't be good.

Koa, your statement that ALL pruning of palms in Hawaii is done on spurs is not correct. I have seen two seperate operations using Swiss tree grippers for that purpose, both on Big Island, one at one of the South Kohala mega resorts and one on high end properties in Kona town. No damage to the palms, either physiologic or cosmetic. Pretty much just as fast up and down as spurs. Cost a bundle to buy, though. I have spoken with the US distributor in the past and he reported that almost all of their (admittedly limited) sales are to Hawaii, so someone over there must be using them...

Originally posted by Koa Man
I would like to know how other guys trimming palms are doing so if they are too high for a ladder and cannot be reached by a bucket

Click to expand...

Hey there Koa Man! I've been to Pearl a few times - freaking beautiful country! Your lucky to get to live there, I wouldn't mind it a gaul'darned bit!

I would love to help you out but I don't know diddly about climbing Palms, we don't have 'em round here.

Prepare for a freak out over your admission of spur practices.

I'm waiting for an answer to your above question Maybe I'll have to climb a tall-arse Palm someday!

WELCOME!

Good point about what is "accepted" and what is "right". All to often they differ. I know of some tree companies that spike pines and firs for pruning(because their are no limbs to throw a line over ) No pines here!!

Someone stated earlier that 50yrs ago black people were forced to drink from a separate faucet, attend different schools, ride in the back of the bus, and were called *******. It was "accepted", but it didn't make it "right".

Lets find answers to these questions.

I am very sympathetic to KoaMan's statements. spiking coconuts is pretty much the dominant method people use to access them here in Hawaii. I have been keeping my eyes and ears open for some time now to find a new method but without any luck. I have tried to figure out a way to install some sort of false crotch but haven't been able to come up with anything feasible yet.

I personally do not spike coconuts because the botanical garden I work at owns a pair of swiss tree climbers, although I personally think they can be a pain in the ass to use, especially if the palm has any sort of bumps or tapers in the trunk. the drawback is that most small tree companies cannot afford the swiss tree climbers. I believe I have seen them in catalogs for $1500-2000.

I agree that spiking any tree is bad, but until I learn another reasonable method of entering coconuts I cannot get upset at tree workers here that do so.

As for coconut diseases: I know that there are a few diseases that cocos can get but I have not heard of any that is wiping out the trees in the islands. I will try to do further research in this area, especially to find out if any of these diseases can be spread by spiking.

don't go ballistic on KoaMan. he is using the best currently known methodology. until something new is learned, which he is obviously interested in doing, then what else can he do?

Climable palms are in short supply up here in the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes so I could be told that I'm talking out of place.

Like others have said, just because a practice is locally accpeted doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

I've talked with some of my southern cousins and they will set a rope with a through line through the crown of the palm and SRT the tree. Seems like that could be difficult to set and care would have to be exercised so that the live fronds weren't broken.

If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes.

Whenever this sort of discussion gets going I like to leave this thought. If you wanted to save money on a paint job for your car you could certainly find someone who would paint over rust instead of doing the proper prep work. But, would you be happy with the savings when the rust starts to bubble through the new paint? Let your client decide. Don't spend or save their money, let them do that.

Spiking trees to prune is hack work.

Tom

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap


If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes.

Tom

Click to expand...

VERY good point, INDEED!

The ones that don't care you don't need to be bothered with anyway. I 'spect the ones that do care will make up for those 'penny pinchers'.

And your rep will compound upon itself!

quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Dunlap


If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes.

Tom
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I agree with this 100% but it still does not address the question: what is an alternative method of accessing very tall cocnuts? you can't charge more to prune without spikes if you can't get into the palm without spikes!

I have noted the suggestion to throw a rope over the top of the palm and ascend SRT but I would suggest that this might be even more dangerous because if you severely damage the terminal bud of the palm it will kill it. for this reason I have not yet tried this technique. perhaps some of the climbers from Florida have experience with this.

Maybe this?

I would buy Swiss tree climbers but they are not practical. A lot of the coco palms are growing through other trees or brush or have vines growing on the trunks for 20 or 30 feet. Many of the coconut palms are not straight trunks but have a very pronounced lean or large tapers. What about those that have lights mounted on them like at many of the resorts. The trick is not only getting to the top, you have to work with two hands free once you're there.

The virus that was mentioned earlier is the Phytophthora katsurae which is causing heart rot. Research by the University of Hawaii has shown that heavy trimming especially during wet weather spreads the disease. Pruning tools should be disinfected by immersing them in a fungicide after pruning each palm. Chain saws spread the disease more than cane knifes because logically it is harder to disinfect.

TREETX, thanks for not considering me a hack anymore. I will make this offer, as I would really like to know of an efficient way to climb palms without spikes under the different conditions noted above.

I will fly anyone from anywhere in the United States round trip to Hawaii at my expense, if they can demonstrate to me how to efficiently get to the top of a palm tree that is too tall for a ladder, inaccessible by a bucket truck and be able to work at the top with both hands without using spikes, gaffs, spurs or what ever else you call them. I am sure the landscape managers from the different resort hotels that I have worked at, the City Arborist and all the different tree contractors would be interested in seeing this demonstration. I will arrange to have it held in front of the largest hotel in Waikiki. They have a nice 80 ft. leaner with a taper and lights mounted on the trunk. Be a good chance to impress the hundreds of tourists on the beach.

Also FYI, I hate using spikes and don't even use them on removals if possible.

burnham,
I did not say all palm tree pruning is done with spikes. I said all tree companies use spikes to trim coconut palms. I have seen many use bucket trucks when feasible, I have done so myself. But if the tree bicycle cannot climb the palm (see conditions above) they will use spikes.

Alright youse guys! Heres yur chance!!

Can whoever goes send me a shirt?

I don't know if this would work but....this would get you the first 30' http://www.futureforestry.com/3rd level/Product Pages/ascender.html Or a ladder would do the same. Then maybe you could use a 30' pole to push a loop/running boline/cambium saver etc. up to 60'...then climb srt. Maybe have a second loop to push up once you've climbed to the first. keep pushing the loop up and climbing up to the loop. It would have to be something retrievable from the ground. Maybe a loop with some stiffness so it would push easier before it was sucked tight. I use a lightweight pole called a long lineman that is about 24' extended and folds up to 6' that I use to set lines and pull hangers. It would work well for pushing a loop, might even come in longer lengths. Linemen use them to pull fuses and such.

Getting the loops over the mounted lights would be a problem. At the top, how can you stay positioned and move up and down one to two feet and move completely around the head of the palm to trim it? You need to be able to be pretty rigid swinging a cane knife in a palm tree swaying in 15-20 mph trade winds. In all honesty, it would not work and even if it did you would be so exhausted after a few climbs you would be done for the day. The Hawaiian Village, where I trimmed the cocos for three times a year for 3 1/2 years, has 450 cocos.

Not being familiar with palm trees in general, or Swiss climbers, has anyone tried or thought of trying a climbing deer hunting stand?

Some models you can't adjust for lean of the tree once you are in the tree, I believe others you can....

Shouldn't be too hard to design one that could be built by a competent welder for less than $200-$300 (IF that...) that can be adjusted once in the tree. Climb up with a saddle on, use a friction saver as an additional tie-in when you have to take it apart to get around the lights. Do both halves separately, and up you go....

Once again though, I'm not familiar AT ALL with palm tree pruning, and it's been about 7 years since I've even seen a real one in person...

Something like this is what I'm talking about, though not exactly this make/model:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...catalog/pod-link.jhtml_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712
Click on the header "Climbing Stands" above for more options...

I'm not sure if this one is adjustable once in the tree, but I HAVE seen ones that are..........

Just a thought. Blow holes in it like normal.


Dan

palms

I have just been to Brisbane and had my first experience at climbing palms, Cocos Island palm.I used the Srt method and as Rocky said it can be hard to set the line , especially as you need to aviod the terminal bud. I was doing it for a friend so time was not an issue but it is doable. I was cutting with my" NEW "Silky Zubat which did clog up a bit I must admit.Stability was an issue...and these were straight up an down.
I can understand Koa Man's dilemia ..
Have you tryed SRT Koa man???

I have not tried to SRT up a coco. I descend from a coco palm using a false crotch around the trunk. I use the ones with one big ring and one small, tie a knot in the end of the rope that will go thru the big ring, catch the small ring and pull the false crotch down. It will be extremely difficult to set a line in the top of a coconut palm from the ground. Even if a line was already set, you would not be able to use any method that required the climbing line to move. Most climbers that use ropes to descend from the coco run the line thru the fronds. As they descend the line works its way between the base of the fronds and sometimes it takes the weight of 2 guys to pull the rope out. The same thing will happen if your line was moving while ascending. Footlock up maybe?? The climbing deer stand looks interesting, but I don't know how easily you can move it around the trunk. Many palms are located where you would not be able to even get an extension ladder to it because the base is surrounded with unclimbable shrubbery or other junk around it. On those the mechanical devices would be useless. I understand that I could use the spikeless methods on trees that can and spikes only on those that cannot, but the spikeless method MUST be efficient. Most experienced coco climbers can easily get to the top of a 60 ft. palm using spikes in 15 to 20 seconds. I would consider a spikeless device efficient if the setup and ascent to the top was 2 minutes or less. On a 450 coco job that would add 12.50 man hours.

:Eye:

I've also tried the SRT method and ended up breaking 2 fronds I never wanted to touch trying to get my rope out, not to mention the 3 tries at even setting the rope. I tried twice with throw line, but it is so thin it just sinks down into the small little areas that will not allow you to pull a climbing line through. I ended up tieing a large monkeys fist with the climbing line and slung it over the top, luckily this was only a 30ft palm 50-60 forget it. The customer actually came out and said are you sure you know how to do this.....Man I looked stupid, I couldn't say I don't want to spike you palms, cause at that point I knew I was going to spike the other 4 I still needed to do. That one ???? palm took me over an hour an looked like crap in the end due to the broken fronds getting my rope out. I HATE to admit it, but If I can't get them with the pole saw, or ladder, I spike them. 10 minutes later and they look great.
Climbing hunting stand sounds like a viable option on straight palms.
Greg