Thread: How to measure wood (what is a cord?)

Originally Posted by turnkey4099

The legal definition of a cord does _not_ say it has to be cut 4' long and left in the round.
That is from the way early days of big fireplaces and steam engines. If it applied back then (I doubt it), it for sure does not now.

The only way bucked, split and piled 4' long 'round wood' comes up to less space than you started with is if the logs are _EXTREMELY_ crooked to begin with. There have been way more discussions on the subject that should be necessary as several experiments have been run proving that split/stacked wood "swells" the volumn. Several table top expiraments have aslo been listed that anyone can do on their table top and prove it to themselves.

I've been cutting, stacking, etc firewood at 10+ cord for over 30 years and know that no matter how you try you can't split a round and get it into a smaller space than nature made to start with...in fact you can't even get it into the _same_ space unless you reassemble it into the original round.

Harry K

Not in the state of Maine........there is only one legal term for a cord of wood and it is exactly as I described. It is formulated this way as it it the starting point for all wood measurement and legal scale. 4' X 4" X 8' round wood is the legal term for one cord of wood in the "Pine Tree Sate" as I stated early in my post other areas have different and sometimes dubious measruring units. Other than that you are dead wrong in everything else you said. Sorry no offense meant but wood does NOT "swell" when processed......if yours does the I'd be selling firewood for a living if I were you...cause you got some thing magical going on there.

Lad...while you were stacking your 300 cord of firewood over the last 30 yrs.....I have been operating a commercial sawmill business...as well as selectively harvesting and legally scaling saw, vineer, pulp and firewood in anywhere from tree length to fit and split...to the tune of over 200,000 BFT per yr... or measured in cords roughly 440,000 cords per year.......for the last 30 yrs......this wood is bought AND sold comercially and internationally....so when I tell you what cord amounts to I aint making it up or blowing smoke to suit my ideas of how to measure wood in a pile. As my dad used to say of the old lady fox talking to the pup "Don't try to tell your granny how to suck eggs, son"

But as I said earlier do it yourself.....accurately stack a cord of round wood cut to 4'...fit it 16"...split it the way you like your wood..restack it an a measurable pile...don't go nuts trying to puzzel it together, just stackit tight and normal and see for yourself if your processed pile does not measure between 96 and 98 cubic feet.....this is not my opinion or something I dreamed up while stacking my 10 cord of firewood each yr..not only is it the rule it is also the law here.


One of my favorite sayings tells of an old timer selling a cord of wood and when quizzed on it's true measure he sat down and filled his pipe and simply said "it a cord of wood I'd buy or sell"...now that's an honest reply...Oh... and just because many people discuss an issue....does not mean they all know what they are talking about...as we've seen......

Cord (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A cord is a volume,same as a gallon (wet) or a cup of flour ( dry ). A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas, it doesn't matter if its in a gas can or 15 dixie cups. I'm at a loss as to why all the arguing.

Originally Posted by Laroo

Cord (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A cord is a volume,same as a gallon (wet) or a cup of flour ( dry ). A gallon of gas is a gallon of gas, it doesn't matter if its in a gas can or 15 dixie cups. I'm at a loss as to why all the arguing.

There is no arguing....the question asked was how measure wood...I answered the question with real legal and accepted procedure. The State of Maine conmmisioned the University of Maine, back in the 80's to define the legal perameters of a cord of wood sold. The benchmark was, as always, a cord of 4' round wood stacked 4' tall and 8' long. From there they did repeated testing to find the averge volumes of firewood cut to different lenghts and split and restacked to find the volumes of not only stacked wood but also thrown in a pile wood for these lengths...The numbers that Jypo stated for heaped wood are accurate too. The measure of a cord is done way I decsribed and it was formulated as a specific set of averages. Wood does not come in a good stackable form such as say 8" X 8" timber there are holes in the stack, different sizes, not so straight... tapered etc. And yes a cord is a volumetric measurement but the reason that round was selected as the benchmark was that not all cord wood goes into firewood so there had to be an average set. Your water analogy is correct as far as it goes...however you take that same gallon and cool it to 33 degrees F is your gallon the same size now? Heat it to 210 degrees F...how's your gallon bucket doing now?? Should of started with a 5 quart pail..yes?? Or, perhaps you would like to try and fit the 15 dixi cups in the same space as the complete gallon took up. You see what I'm saying? You haven't added or subtracted any water but you have changed the volume that it requires. Just the very fact that when you fit a measured cord of wood into 16" lengths with a chainsaw you have removed exactly the equivilent of a 4'X8' sheet of 3/4" plywood in sawdust and every thing you do to that wood decreases the volume that it will require....it doesn't reduce the amount of wood (other than the aforementioned sawdust) but you do change the amount of space it requires to be stored. I am sorry if some find this irritating...it is not my fault nor did I come up with the rules...many, many years ago they came up with the baseline of how to measure wood and this is it. I just trying to correctly answer the question to those who want to know the real answer.

I normally agree with most things Cantdog and Turnkey post . And I can see how they both come to their conclusions on how to measure wood . The old find a round that just fits in a 5 gallon bucket and then split it and see still fits (it won't ) seems to show split would takes up more space . However Cantdogs post has merit and I won't and can't dispute it . I think the problem is in measuring wood for firewood and measuring it for other uses . I seem to have two types of firewood customers . The type that is blissfully ignorant of how to measure a cord and the type that go on the internet and see that a cord is 128 cubic feet or 4'x4'x8' and they darn well better get that . So because 128 cubic feet is the standard for firewood in my neck of the woods that is what they will continue to get . I don't want the angry phone call about it being only 98 cubic feet . And if I ever move to a area that measures wood in ricks or ranks or what ever , I will sell it in the locally accepted measure . I would probably sell more than if I tried to convince them to change after years and years of doing it their way .

well this most recient dust up was when cant called me a long thumber.

He had no basis or real knowledge. But decided to start some crap.
So since he hasn't apologized for calling me a lyer the only thing I can do is ignore him and find him. .

Originally Posted by Rockland Farm

I normally agree with most things Cantdog and Turnkey post . And I can see how they both come to their conclusions on how to measure wood . The old find a round that just fits in a 5 gallon bucket and then split it and see still fits (it won't ) seems to show split would takes up more space . However Cantdogs post has merit and I won't and can't dispute it . I think the problem is in measuring wood for firewood and measuring it for other uses . I seem to have two types of firewood customers . The type that is blissfully ignorant of how to measure a cord and the type that go on the internet and see that a cord is 128 cubic feet or 4'x4'x8' and they darn well better get that . So because 128 cubic feet is the standard for firewood in my neck of the woods that is what they will continue to get . I don't want the angry phone call about it being only 98 cubic feet . And if I ever move to a area that measures wood in ricks or ranks or what ever , I will sell it in the locally accepted measure . I would probably sell more than if I tried to convince them to change after years and years of doing it their way .

As I said earlier the method of legal measure and scale in the State of Maine is not something I made up..it's the law as far as commercialy selling firewood. Your analogy of the 5 gallon bucket is absolutely correct it won't fit back in the bucket. However the point missed is the relationship that round of wood has to the rest of the rounds in the pile it is in. There is a lot of unused space in a 1 cord pile of round wood. That space gets filled in when the splitwood is stacked. though there more spaces they are much smaller and that is the reason for a stacked pile of split wood not measuring 128cuft. I have also said over and over anyone is more than welcome to do their own test if you are in doubt. All you need is a cord of 4' round wood, a saw and splitter and a tape measure. This is also why the real honest old timers selling firewood up here used to always pile a 9' cord, so when it was fit, split and stacked it would stack a 128cuft cord more or less. Which is , if I am reading this right, basically the way you sell your firewood Which is also fine if that works for you. When heating oil got so expensive and folks here started burning more wood there were so many firewood sellers that were shorting their customers that the state had to come up with a standard method of measuring what a cord of wood amounted to in the many various way of delivering it so the university studied it extensively and came up with these figures..not me....to protect buyers from getting to little wood... not for getting to much...

Originally Posted by tramp bushler

well this most recient dust up was when cant called me a long thumber.

He had no basis or real knowledge. But decided to start some crap.
So since he hasn't apologized for calling me a lyer the only thing I can do is ignore him and find him. .

As Denis Cahoon would say hahahahahahahahah!!!


BTW I did not call you a liar....I said you didn't have 2 cord on that truck....no lie...

Originally Posted by Cantdog

Not in the state of Maine........there is only one legal term for a cord of wood and it is exactly as I described. It is formulated this way as it it the starting point for all wood measurement and legal scale. 4' X 4" X 8' round wood is the legal term for one cord of wood in the "Pine Tree Sate" as I stated early in my post other areas have different and sometimes dubious measruring units. Other than that you are dead wrong in everything else you said. Sorry no offense meant but wood does NOT "swell" when processed......if yours does the I'd be selling firewood for a living if I were you...cause you got some thing magical going on there.

Lad...while you were stacking your 300 cord of firewood over the last 30 yrs.....I have been operating a commercial sawmill business...as well as selectively harvesting and legally scaling saw, vineer, pulp and firewood in anywhere from tree length to fit and split...to the tune of over 200,000 BFT per yr... or measured in cords roughly 440,000 cords per year.......for the last 30 yrs......this wood is bought AND sold comercially and internationally....so when I tell you what cord amounts to I aint making it up or blowing smoke to suit my ideas of how to measure wood in a pile. As my dad used to say of the old lady fox talking to the pup "Don't try to tell your granny how to suck eggs, son"

But as I said earlier do it yourself.....accurately stack a cord of round wood cut to 4'...fit it 16"...split it the way you like your wood..restack it an a measurable pile...don't go nuts trying to puzzel it together, just stackit tight and normal and see for yourself if your processed pile does not measure between 96 and 98 cubic feet.....this is not my opinion or something I dreamed up while stacking my 10 cord of firewood each yr..not only is it the rule it is also the law here.


One of my favorite sayings tells of an old timer selling a cord of wood and when quizzed on it's true measure he sat down and filled his pipe and simply said "it a cord of wood I'd buy or sell"...now that's an honest reply...Oh... and just because many people discuss an issue....does not mean they all know what they are talking about...as we've seen......

I am having zero success finding the Maine definition of a cord. Do you have a cite for it...one from the weights and measures standards?

As to splitting stacking, you obvisouely have never made an accurate test of it. Here is simple one you can do while watching TV.

Takes a couple nicely tapered carrots and slice into rounds - you will have a nice assortment of sizes. now take a box top or any other container you care for and fill it up with a single laiy or those rounds. Dump any rounds you have left over.

Now dump out and cut each of the remaining rounds in half.

Try to get them all back in the container.

Be ready for a shock.

It ain't what you know that hurts, it's what you know that ain't so that bites you.

Found it. What fun trying that on a slow download (640k on a good day).

----------------------------------------------------------

As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following words and phrases shall have the following meanings: [1973, c. 91, §1 (RPR).]
1. Cord;
A. A standard cord is a unit of measure of wood products 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, containing 128 cubic feet when the wood is ranked and well stowed. Any voids that will accommodate a stick, log or bolt of average dimensions to those in that pile shall be deducted from the measured volume. [1979, c. 659, §1 (RPR).]

Note the "or bolt" in above. Nothing in this section says "4 feet long rounds"

Also note that this is the official definition from the "definitions" section of the code, following items add a bit to it.


A-1. A cord when used in connection with sawdust, chips or shavings means the volume of material contained in 128 cubic feet at the time of sale. [1979, c. 659, §2 (NEW).]
A-2. Fuel wood, when sold loose and not ranked and well stowed, shall be sold by the cubic foot or loose cord, unless other arrangements are made between the buyer and seller. When sold by the loose cord, the wood in any cord shall average either 12 inches, 16 inches or 24 inches in length. When so sold, the volume of the cords shall be: A cord of 12 or 16 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 180 cubic feet; and a cord of wood 24 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 195 cubic feet. [1981, c. 219, (AMD).]
B. A face cord is a unit of measure 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, containing 32 square feet. The length of sticks shall be agreed upon by both parties; [1973, c. 91, §1 (RPR).]

10. Standard cord. A "standard cord" means the cubic foot measurement of 4 foot long wood, ranked and well stowed, and stacked 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, which stack measure contains 128 cubic feet of wood, bark and air space. A "standard cord" when used in connection with sawdust chips, bark or shavings means the volume contained in 128 cubic feet at the time of sale.

Note the "or its equivalent" and also nothing mentioned about "round"

1. Cubic measure and standard cord. In all wood transactions the volume of wood may be measured in cubic feet or by the standard cord as provided for by the state sealer.
[ 1983, c. 804, §6 (NEW) .]

Bottom line. It repeatedly defines a cord as being well ranked wood amounting t 128 cu ft.

At the end of the day, everyone knows the definition of a cord, "128 cu ft of well ranked wood"


Harry K

Originally Posted by Cantdog

As I said earlier the method of legal measure and scale in the State of Maine is not something I made up..it's the law as far as commercialy selling firewood. Your analogy of the 5 gallon bucket is absolutely correct it won't fit back in the bucket. However the point missed is the relationship that round of wood has to the rest of the rounds in the pile it is in. There is a lot of unused space in a 1 cord pile of round wood. That space gets filled in when the splitwood is stacked. though there more spaces they are much smaller and that is the reason for a stacked pile of split wood not measuring 128cuft. I have also said over and over anyone is more than welcome to do their own test if you are in doubt. All you need is a cord of 4' round wood, a saw and splitter and a tape measure. This is also why the real honest old timers selling firewood up here used to always pile a 9' cord, so when it was fit, split and stacked it would stack a 128cuft cord more or less. Which is , if I am reading this right, basically the way you sell your firewood Which is also fine if that works for you. When heating oil got so expensive and folks here started burning more wood there were so many firewood sellers that were shorting their customers that the state had to come up with a standard method of measuring what a cord of wood amounted to in the many various way of delivering it so the university studied it extensively and came up with these figures..not me....to protect buyers from getting to little wood... not for getting to much...

Well there's the problem buddeh... Everybody knows the folks in Maine drink too much...

Loose thrown cord, State of Maine ; Chapter 382;Section 6 (I)

They brought the firewood to the farmstead, then cut the cordwood and split to stove wood length. They restacked the wood into smaller lengths of wood that would fit together tight. So the pile was now smaller than the original size pile. The result was shrinkage. A cord cut into sixteen inch lengths would shrink by 15 percent. Twelve inch lengths would shrink by as much as 25 percent.

Using this loose measure formular below , ( i.e 12"-16";180 cu ft or 20"-24";195 cu ft) will not re-stack to a full cord (128 cu ft). This rule was originally from commencing from a stacked pile (4'x4'x8')of round logs. Once processed into 12" or 16" split pieces, and thrown loose in a container , it would occupy a space of about 180 cu ft. Acording to the University of Maine, If you take this same pile and re-stack it (this 180 cu ft loose thown pile) , it would re-stack between 100 cu ft - 107 cu ft. and the 195 cu ft pile (i.e 20" or 24") would re-stack in a space of 110 to 113 cu ft. This is what is refered to as (shrinkage factor). Therefore, If you are a consumer, and the dealer offers you firewood, using this loose thrown measure formular, expect to be short change of volumn as much as < 20% or as much as 18 - 25 cu ft. And if you are paying $ 200.00 for this loose thrown measurement (which is alittle over 3/4 of a cord), You are actually paying $256.00 per cord (128 cu ft). This loose thrown measurement formular is only excepted in the State of Maine for the sale of firewood , furthermore, it is illegal to convert from one system of measurement to another for the basis of payment.

Here you go...these numbers are a little different than I was using but not anyway near the 128 cuft measure. But you get my point.....as I said do it yourself but don't use carrots...

Originally Posted by Hedgerow

Well there's the problem buddeh... Everybody knows the folks in Maine drink too much...

That may be it!!LOL!!!

When I sold buck firewood in a city very few customers have room for a cord so we don't use a cord measurement. So around my area it's a pickup truck load or a rank 4ft by 16 inch by 8ft. Camp ground firewood is as long as you can get in your splitter. Which some times ends up well over a rank 4 ft by 23 inch by 8 ft. Later

Well, since we're probably gonna argue about this till the snow flies again, I'll post up what the state of MN has to say. Remember former Gov. Ventura's semi-famous quote about St Paul's street system being laid out by drunken Irishmen? I think they were working on the cord law over a few drinks as well.

How is firewood measured?
Firewood may be measured by the cubic foot, the cubic
meter, or the cord. If measured by the foot or meter, the
wood is first stacked with all pieces placed parallel to
each other. The wood is then said to be ranked. Wood
must be ranked if it is to be measured accurately. Ranking
minimizes the space between the sticks, or pieces, of
wood. Some sellers use various cross-stacking methods to
exaggerate the quantity of wood delivered. Do not
attempt to measure cross-stacked wood.

What is a cord?
A cord has a specific legal definition in Minnesota:
• One cord is 128 cubic feet in four foot lengths.
• If the wood is sawed, a cord is 110 cubic feet when
ranked, or 160 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a
truck.
• If the wood is sawed and split, a cord is 120 cubic feet
when ranked, and 175 cubic feet when thrown loosely
into a truck. (Minnesota Statutes, Section 239.33)

Must I buy my wood in cords?
No. You and the seller may enter into any agreement you
choose, but be aware that words like truckload, face cord,
rick, fireplace cord, or pile, have no legal definition. The
Weights and Measures Division cannot help you in a dispute
if the wood is not sold by the cubic foot, the cubic
meter, or the cord.

The above comes from this PDF: http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-m...ngFirewood.pdf

Note the last paragraph. It's legal to sell wood by the rickshaw load if you want, but if selling by the cord, cu ft, or cu mtr, you'd better be accurate.

My stubborn mind believes in a full cord of firewood at 128 cu ft of split and stacked wood. Any I sell will go as such. I'm also aware that a 10 cord load of pulpwood ain't gonna come out to 10 cords of firewood, due to crooked pieces that cause more air space in the load, and I'm fine with that as well.

Originally Posted by Steve NW WI

Well, since we're probably gonna argue about this till the snow flies again, I'll post up what the state of MN has to say. Remember former Gov. Ventura's semi-famous quote about St Paul's street system being laid out by drunken Irishmen? I think they were working on the cord law over a few drinks as well.



The above comes from this PDF: http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-m...ngFirewood.pdf

Note the last paragraph. It's legal to sell wood by the rickshaw load if you want, but if selling by the cord, cu ft, or cu mtr, you'd better be accurate.

My stubborn mind believes in a full cord of firewood at 128 cu ft of split and stacked wood. Any I sell will go as such. I'm also aware that a 10 cord load of pulpwood ain't gonna come out to 10 cords of firewood, due to crooked pieces that cause more air space in the load, and I'm fine with that as well.

Yep, too much drink to get to a 110 or 120 cu ft cord. I suspect none of them ever stacked wood.

Harry K

Originally Posted by Cantdog

Loose thrown cord, State of Maine ; Chapter 382;Section 6 (I)

They brought the firewood to the farmstead, then cut the cordwood and split to stove wood length. They restacked the wood into smaller lengths of wood that would fit together tight. So the pile was now smaller than the original size pile. The result was shrinkage. A cord cut into sixteen inch lengths would shrink by 15 percent. Twelve inch lengths would shrink by as much as 25 percent.

Using this loose measure formular below , ( i.e 12"-16";180 cu ft or 20"-24";195 cu ft) will not re-stack to a full cord (128 cu ft). This rule was originally from commencing from a stacked pile (4'x4'x8')of round logs. Once processed into 12" or 16" split pieces, and thrown loose in a container , it would occupy a space of about 180 cu ft. Acording to the University of Maine, If you take this same pile and re-stack it (this 180 cu ft loose thown pile) , it would re-stack between 100 cu ft - 107 cu ft. and the 195 cu ft pile (i.e 20" or 24") would re-stack in a space of 110 to 113 cu ft. This is what is refered to as (shrinkage factor). Therefore, If you are a consumer, and the dealer offers you firewood, using this loose thrown measure formular, expect to be short change of volumn as much as < 20% or as much as 18 - 25 cu ft. And if you are paying $ 200.00 for this loose thrown measurement (which is alittle over 3/4 of a cord), You are actually paying $256.00 per cord (128 cu ft). This loose thrown measurement formular is only excepted in the State of Maine for the sale of firewood , furthermore, it is illegal to convert from one system of measurement to another for the basis of payment.

Here you go...these numbers are a little different than I was using but not anyway near the 128 cuft measure. But you get my point.....as I said do it yourself but don't use carrots...

Try that slicing up carrots thing yet?

Harry K