Jonsered 621 Oiler won't oil

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rlamppa1

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621 Oiler
I have my dad's 621. Since I was a kid the oiler has been a problem. Very intermittent. I have cleaned the screen, hose is clear and connected on both ends. I have tried another known working oiler. This saw has cut a lot of wood in its day. Is it possible the lobe on the crank shaft is so worn that it wont pump the oiler? Something else obvious that I am missing. I have 3 other 621's that oil great, except the one that means the most to me. Thanks for your help
 
Have you checked the "wiggle pin" located on the recoil side top of the oil tank under the muffler? Looks a cotter pin and must be loose and free to move about as it is how the oil tank vents air in to replace oil pumped out.
Yes. It’s clean and wiggles. I’ve had the cap on and off enough it should have some air. It doesn’t pump at all now. It doesn’t even pump for a minute then quit like it’s not venting. Had that problem on another saw. I only see the one inlet from the the hose into the oiler cylinder. Is there another hole farther back I’m not seeing? Sprayed plenty of cleaner and air into the cylinder with the Oiler out. Thanks.
 
I had this all figured out a few years ago and posted it on here but I can't find the thread anymore so we're gonna have to go with my memory as best I can. You seem to have a pretty good understanding of the layout of the parts so that will help us both.
First the chances of your cam lobe being worn out is about zero. They are replacable but that is a serious amount of effort. So we will concentrate on the pump itself and the case.
You have tried two known working pumps with the same unhappy results.......that said the reasons they didn't work may or may not be the reason the original didn't work so we have the bear that in mind.
I have some pics that show all the parts and case.
The first couple are of the case showing the oil passages. Looking down the bore you see two wires entering the bore from different directions. The one sticking out of tghe case on the right is the return passage to the tank. The one going up to the left is the feed passage to the bar/chain.
The second pic shows the location in the oil tank where the return located. It also shows where your pickup line to the pump is located and its attachment points behind the screen and at the oil pump. These locations are important understanding what goes on in these oil pumps.


IMG_1594.jpgIMG_1595.jpg
 
Next is a pic of the oil pump disassembled and laid out in order. We'll start at the plunger end of the pump. In the brass barrel you see there is an o-ring in the groove closest to the crankshaft and a small hole bored straight through the second groove. The o-ring keeps the bar oil from entering the engine and the two holes are where your oil enters the pump from the tank and this groove lines up with the hose barb shown in the case pic. The holes in the brass barrel must be free of any debris.
Next there is a small spring with an aluminum carrier on the end towards the plunger with a small o-ring type seal......this is very important because what this is is a one way check valve......when the plunger moves forward the oil pushes the valve open and oil moves into the pump body proper.......when the plunger retracts on the low side of the cam the carrier spring seals the pump off from the body so the oil doesn't simply return back down the feed line, at the same time creating a vaccume to pull more oil up from the tank. It is important that this seal is in good order and not cracked or rotted. This is the first of a series of checkvalves in these pumps but by far the most important.....and the smallest. This action is also timed by the location of the cam on the crank so that as the plunger retracts the case is under negative pressure assisting the vaccume effect.

IMG_1589.jpgIMG_1592.jpgIMG_1590.jpg
 
Now we get to the pump body itself. You will note it has five o-rings....three large and two smaller. The three larger ones seal the body to the case and isolates the return and bar feed lines. The two smaller ones do not sit in square milled grooves like the other three but rather sit in tapered grooves. These o-rings are small enough that they do not contact the case bore. Under these are holes bored straight through same as the brass barrel. These too are one-way valves in that pressure inside the pump body lift/expands them and allows oil to pass out around them to the bar and/or return, when the pressure receeds on the backstroke of the plunger they seat again in their grooves and seal the pump body from gulping air from the return or pulling oil back from the bar. These o-rings line up one with the bar feed passage and the other with the return passage to the oil tank. The holes under these are prone to becoming clogged. If any of these three one-way valves becomes inoperable the pump won't pump.
In the pic the small o-ring is rolled up out of the groove to show the holes....as you can see from the pic that o-ring is cracked badly so is useless and would cause a problem.

I might as well finish up explaining the oil adjuster and return. In the pic you'll see a plunger and the srew adjuster but missing in the pic is a spring that goes inside the pump body and pushes against the plunger when the adjuster is adjusted inwards.
So...how this works is when the plunger covers the holes in the return passage this is full oiling....adjuster screwed all the way in.......no oil allowed to return to the tank as the plunger blocks the holes. As you back the screw out and expose the holes the o-ring is lifted and more oil is returned oiling to the bar oiling goes down.

Hope this is helpful........and I explained it well enough to follow.

IMG_1591.jpgIMG_1593.jpg
 
Now we get to the pump body itself. You will note it has five o-rings....three large and two smaller. The three larger ones seal the body to the case and isolates the return and bar feed lines. The two smaller ones do not sit in square milled grooves like the other three but rather sit in tapered grooves. These o-rings are small enough that they do not contact the case bore. Under these are holes bored straight through same as the brass barrel. These too are one-way valves in that pressure inside the pump body lift/expands them and allows oil to pass out around them to the bar and/or return, when the pressure receeds on the backstroke of the plunger they seat again in their grooves and seal the pump body from gulping air from the return or pulling oil back from the bar. These o-rings line up one with the bar feed passage and the other with the return passage to the oil tank. The holes under these are prone to becoming clogged. If any of these three one-way valves becomes inoperable the pump won't pump.
In the pic the small o-ring is rolled up out of the groove to show the holes....as you can see from the pic that o-ring is cracked badly so is useless and would cause a problem.

I might as well finish up explaining the oil adjuster and return. In the pic you'll see a plunger and the srew adjuster but missing in the pic is a spring that goes inside the pump body and pushes against the plunger when the adjuster is adjusted inwards.
So...how this works is when the plunger covers the holes in the return passage this is full oiling....adjuster screwed all the way in.......no oil allowed to return to the tank as the plunger blocks the holes. As you back the screw out and expose the holes the o-ring is lifted and more oil is returned oiling to the bar oiling goes down.

Hope this is helpful........and I explained it well enough to follow.

View attachment 1172760View attachment 1172763
Thanks a ton, Robin! I will take a look at the oilers better this weekend. I guess all these years I have been adjusting it wrong. The saw manual makes it sound like you turn it out for more oil. The big question is, when I put the oiler back in, should I try and orientate the holes on the oiler with the passages going through the block? I know the 2 holes through the block are clean and clear. Has to be in the plunger system its self. I will report back in a day or two.

Thanks, Regan
 
I will look at the service manual for more information when I get to the shop today. My gut feeling is that the holes in the aluminum body should be oriented vertically in order to purge air more effectivly. Any air bubble trapped in the body would creat a "cushion" and could cause a non pumping issue. The pump plunger only moves like a drop of oil per stroke so it won't take a very large air bubble to allow such a cushion. I will post back later today with any info from the manual.
 
OK....After getting to the shop consulting service and owners manuals and the actual oil pump in the pics I see that I didn't have the adjusting part correctly explained. I said in the beginning I had this all figured out years back and was operating from memory....which at 70 years old may be not so good LOL!!
Anyway...The adjustment barrel, when adjusted all the way in extends to cover the two holes leading to the bar........this plunger is hollow so excess oil travels through the hollow to where it can lift the o-ring at the return section and return to the tank. This return is always in play until the barrel is adjusted out enough to allow full oiling to the bar. At this point the barrel has moved across the return holes blocking them off to assure full oiling. The adjustment is very sensitive as the amount of adjustment is limited to the diameter of the two small holes which is maybe 1/16". So adjusting the barrel either covers or exposes these holes to make the adjustment. According to the manual the initial setting from all the way in the adjuster screw is turned out 1 1/2 turns. From there to full oiling shouldn't be more than an additional 1 1/2-2 turns out.
 
OK....After getting to the shop consulting service and owners manuals and the actual oil pump in the pics I see that I didn't have the adjusting part correctly explained. I said in the beginning I had this all figured out years back and was operating from memory....which at 70 years old may be not so good LOL!!
Anyway...The adjustment barrel, when adjusted all the way in extends to cover the two holes leading to the bar........this plunger is hollow so excess oil travels through the hollow to where it can lift the o-ring at the return section and return to the tank. This return is always in play until the barrel is adjusted out enough to allow full oiling to the bar. At this point the barrel has moved across the return holes blocking them off to assure full oiling. The adjustment is very sensitive as the amount of adjustment is limited to the diameter of the two small holes which is maybe 1/16". So adjusting the barrel either covers or exposes these holes to make the adjustment. According to the manual the initial setting from all the way in the adjuster screw is turned out 1 1/2 turns. From there to full oiling shouldn't be more than an additional 1 1/2-2 turns out.
I cleaned the oiler very well. All the little holes are clear. Tried the hole orientation several ways. Still nothing. A couple of the O rings looked poor. I had a generic kit of O rings and changed them, still nothing. What I noticed now is that when I tip the saw on its side the idle goes up. I suspect bad crank seals. Would a bad crank seal now cause the no oil issue now. The oiler was always was intermittent, I can see dirt causing that. Would I be loosing enough vacuum with a bad seal that it won't work at all now? That being said, do you have a seal number that would fit so I can order a set of seals? I guess they need to be changed regardless. I don't remember the idle issue before, but I haven't used it in a few years because I could only buck a few pieces before the chain got hot. Thanks for taking the time with me on this.
 
I cleaned the oiler very well. All the little holes are clear. Tried the hole orientation several ways. Still nothing. A couple of the O rings looked poor. I had a generic kit of O rings and changed them, still nothing. What I noticed now is that when I tip the saw on its side the idle goes up. I suspect bad crank seals. Would a bad crank seal now cause the no oil issue now. The oiler was always was intermittent, I can see dirt causing that. Would I be loosing enough vacuum with a bad seal that it won't work at all now? That being said, do you have a seal number that would fit so I can order a set of seals? I guess they need to be changed regardless. I don't remember the idle issue before, but I haven't used it in a few years because I could only buck a few pieces before the chain got hot. Thanks for taking the time with me on this.
Robin:

I got it to finally work like a champ! Not sure if it was the last cleaning of everything, but before I put it back in, I put the oiler in a cup of oil and worked it by hand. I could see the 2 o-rings moving and pumping oil out from under them. Stuck it back in and that saw in my life time has never slung oil off the bar like it does now. Not sure if that actually primed the oiler or what. Thank you a ton for all the help.

Regan
 
Robin:

I got it to finally work like a champ! Not sure if it was the last cleaning of everything, but before I put it back in, I put the oiler in a cup of oil and worked it by hand. I could see the 2 o-rings moving and pumping oil out from under them. Stuck it back in and that saw in my life time has never slung oil off the bar like it does now. Not sure if that actually primed the oiler or what. Thank you a ton for all the help.

Regan
That's great Regan...glad you fixed an issue that has plagued that saw for years. Yes I believe priming the pump and purging all the air out of the body like you did before reinstalling was a large part of the cure.!!:cheers:
 

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