Help with radial trenching

[treeman82]

I have been talking with JPS this afternoon about doing some radial trenching at a customer's house. This was after it was suggested to me by Brian, JPS and a bunch of other people a week or so ago in the chat room. I have the measurements, and need help with figuring this out as far as pricing goes as well as loam requirements go.

Overall area is 90' x 170'
3 sugar maples in this area each about 3' in diameter
crown spreads are 50' 60' 60'
They are planted in a bank run type material which goes DOWN.


Also another area has to be cleared of cement slop which has been provided by a tree friendly masonary contractor. The covered area is approximately 40' x 18'

To buy "loam" is approximately $25 - $30 per "cubic yard" and that's before taxes, delivery, etc.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

What is bank run material and what do you mean by it going down?

Do you need help with the math caluclations? Converting the cubic yards of material to radial trench volumes? That's pretty basic lenghtXwidthX height numbers.

Are you using a trencher or Air Knife/Spade? If you talked with JPS I'm sure he advised air over mechanical. Mechanical is too damaging to the roots. The cure could kill if you cut roots. Is that ethical?

Or...are you asking for help bidding the time? You're the only one that can work that calculation. Time to shovel loam into wheelbarrow/time to run wheelbarrow to trench/time to shovel out and dispose of old soil...that's what estimating is all about. If you want to learn, do some educated/calculated guesses then, if you get the bid, keep accurate records for future referance.

While you're in there with the Air tools you should do a root crown inspection. I'll bet you can find some girdling roots. Getting rid of SGRs can be more beneficial than radial trenching some times.

Tom

 

[Nickrosis]

I'm lost.

 

[treeman82]

Tom, JPS and I talked tonight and figured out the whole loam number deal. I just have to figure out what kind of number I need in order to be fair to both parties.

 

[treeman82]

Tom, bank run is a rather course sand mixture. The stuff I am referring to has some small rocks (<1/2") and some small clay deposits. Otherwise it's pretty gritty. As for what I meant by it goes DOWN is that, if you dig down in this stuff 15 feet + all you will hit is bank run, MAYBE a couple stones every once in a while.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Mat and I discussed doing linear trenches, 2 feet wide and 18 in deep (just read the articla in JOA where they went 15 in. use 18 becuse 1.5 ft is easier on my brain with math.) there would be 3 sets of trenches each each set 3/4 the size of the next one. the longest set is 30*2*1.5

Toatal replacement of soil requirs around 40 feet of soil per tree, if I remeber correctly. If loam is mixed with the native soil on backfill figuring a 33% loss from drift have 40 feet for the 3 trees.

Using the "pie" excavation method of removing 50% of the soil in quadrent sections we needed something like 250 cu/ft

On the few I've done of acutal trenching, I've amended native soil.

The JOA artilce shows (in small scale studies) that toatal replacment is most effective in lonterm rootmass development.

 

[treeman82]

John, could you please post that link again? I lost it on Saturday when I went out to get the crown measurements.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

This is to the JOA online list of past abstracts.

http://www2.champaign.isa-arbor.com/JofA/abstracts/abstracts.html

Here is the paper we discussed on radial trenching and total soil replacement.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=56&Type=1

 

[murphy4trees]

I Am planning to do my first radial trenching job... probably this winter.. considerring two sources of compost.
One is composted leaf debris available from the local municpalities which do curb-side leaf pick-up. It's free and available about 3 minutes from the job...
The other is mushroom soil... We are about 30-40 minutes from Kennett Square, the mushroom capital of the world... the mushroom factories either sell it cheap, $1-2/yd. or give it away.
I Am concerned about the possability of harming the trees, red oaks. Could these compost sources carry herbicides or pathogens?
http://tmecc.org/sta/index.html is a link to a site that does compost testing.. primarily for heavy metals and herbicides. I'll research their services..
Any other thoughts or suggestions are appreciated..
I was thinking of renting a sod cutter and using an air spade to do the excavations.. and go with 100% soil replacement.
There is one 80' red oak in significant die back... sure would like to save the tree..
Thanks and God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would be concerned with the shroom soil, what are they growing? Armalaria is an edible fungus.

Anything that is not fully composted, I would use as a mix with native soil. Give the client the option of using 100% black dirt for back fill as the best choice and the leaf compost mix as an economy option.

 

[Eric E.]

Daniel,
I would be more concerned with the mushroom soil having undesirable contents. Why do the growers get rid of it so fast, one year is the max I believe. As for the compost, I've used the stuff from our town's leaf collection. Great stuff. It produced great Jalapenos this year in my new garden. When ever I've used it the plant growth was impressive, great rooting when used in containers. The disadvantage I've found is there is trash that needs to be raked out. Broken glass can be found regularly since bottles don't do well through leaf vacs. Not good for use as topdressing a lawn. The glass may be a problem unless you are covering the area with mulch afterwards.

82,

What is you're objective in trenching? Most trenching is to reduce compaction. There shouldn't be much compaction on bank run.

 

[gregorylnd]

I had a couple mycology classes and studied mushroom farms while getting my Botany dergree. The mushroom compost is the most tested, controlled and sterilized (before the shroom inoculation) stuff in agriculture! You could ask the farm what shroom they are running - Most likely your common Agaricus bisporus. The compost is prepared specific to the crop and only produces the one mushroom type. It is very good stuff and I wood kill for a local supplier under $20.00/cu.yd.
If you can find a green waste processor who at least partially composts his stuff it may not be to hot or raw. Good luck and God bless.

Not grounded,