New to milling (long)

[Booma]

Bob, this is good learning stuff for me. I think I get what you're saying in general but don't understand about negative rake? Could you elaborate on that a bit more?

You've convinced me; there is plenty of tooth left on that chain to grind to correct angles so that gives me something to do tomorrow.

I am switching over to the other chain tomorrow and hope to finish my sawing. Hopefully, I'll see even better performance. I'll post some close up pics of what I sawed so far with the incorrectly ground chain ( which ain't too bad in my opinion) and some that I saw with the correctly ground chain. I hope someone will post pics of something they have cut with a store-bought ripping chain (or by someone who actually knows what they are doing) to see how close I'm getting.


Also, it might have been my scrawny accountant arms that were getting dull and causing the slower cutting. Dear Lord, I could barely move today but I truly, truly enjoyed sawing up the lumber LOL!!

 

[Kicker_92]

Also, it might have been my scrawny accountant arms that were getting dull and causing the slower cutting. Dear Lord, I could barely move today but I truly, truly enjoyed sawing up the lumber LOL!!

I hear ya on that one, it's amazing how weak you can get by working a desk job, even with some exercise.

You'll notice that your sore for the first couple months, but after a bit will find you have more energy during the days at work. Theres a lot of side benifits too, I've noticed that my carpal tunnel had greatly improved since sawing and doing more physical work.

Milling is a great addiction to have, although co-workers might start to think you're a bit crazy when you start talking about chainsaws...

 

[BobL]

Bob, this is good learning stuff for me. I think I get what you're saying in general but don't understand about negative rake? Could you elaborate on that a bit more?

On the image below you will see that the cutter labeled "negative rake" has the wrong top plate angle on it. So instead of grabbing the wood the angle of the tooth pushes it sideways towards the middle of the bar. Combined with the positive rake of the two adjacent cutters the chain is pulled hard over to the right. Compare this to the section of chain shown above where the positive rakes grab the chain either side keeping the chain balanced and running straight. The negative rakes will place forces on and wear the chain and bar unnecessarily.

 

[Booma]

Bob, thanks a million for the pic, I wish I knew how to do that! A picture is worth a thousand words. *bows, tips cap*

The pattern I ground the chain with was two teeth with top angle to the left, then two teeth with top angle to the right, then one zero degree top angle tooth (repeated around the loop)

I don't believe I had any negative rakes; the teeth were just getting dull as it was the third log that I had sawn, bark, dirt, and all. I would describe your drawing (with the exception of the example rake angle tooth) as a 'left/right/left/right' pattern. A similar description of my erroneous first attempt at grinding a ripchain would be 'left/left/right/right/zero'.

What I did on the second chain that I ground for ripping was 'left/right/zero'. In my tiny mind, this seems logical...is that the correct pattern? I plan to make the first chain, as well as others, the same.

 

[BobL]

Bob, thanks a million for the pic, I wish I knew how to do that! A picture is worth a thousand words. *bows, tips cap*

The pattern I ground the chain with was two teeth with top angle to the left, then two teeth with top angle to the right, then one zero degree top angle tooth (repeated around the loop)

I don't believe I had any negative rakes; the teeth were just getting dull as it was the third log that I had sawn, bark, dirt, and all. I would describe your drawing (with the exception of the example rake angle tooth) as a 'left/right/left/right' pattern. A similar description of my erroneous first attempt at grinding a ripchain would be 'left/left/right/right/zero'.

What I did on the second chain that I ground for ripping was 'left/right/zero'. In my tiny mind, this seems logical...is that the correct pattern? I plan to make the first chain, as well as others, the same.

When you sat 2 left and 2 right I assume you mean progressively alternating across the chain?
Do you mean like this?

if so then cutters 2 and 3 are negatively raked - and 2 out of every 5 will be negatively raked.

Here is a way to show this in ASCII text

/...\...|.../...\.../...\...|
../...\.../...\...|.../...\

 

[Booma]

That last pic nailed it Bob and you are correct, I have negative rakes

I went out to the garage and thought it over while actually looking at the chain (ain't got enough brain power to do it from memory, obviously :monkey and what you said makes perfect sense now...I can actually *taste* the 'greenhorn' LOL!

More crying here now because while there is probably enough tooth left to correct the angles, it takes a while to do that without overheating the teeth. I may just toss this one back into the pile for now and start over with another chain.

Clever idea for the ascii characters, I like it! Could I get an opinion on which tooth pattern is better before I mangle another chain, fig. 1 or fig. 2? (or as my eye doctor says, better 1 or better 2?)

Fig. 1

--/--/--|--/--/--|--/--/-- --
=======================BAR
----\--\--|--\--\--|--\--

Fig. 2

--/--|--/--|--/--|--/-- |--
========================BAR
----\--|--\--|--\--|--\--|--

Fig. 3

Insert correct tooth pattern here

 

[striperswaper]

Booma
you might want to seriously consider a Granberg file guide - Bailey's sells them
to correct the chain you have now will be difficult to get free hand if you don't have much experience
I have been sharpening cross cut chains for more years than I care to say and when I started doing alittle milling this winter went to a guide similar to the Granberg that I had for 20+ years but never used until now
just a thought...

 

[BobL]

More crying here now because while there is probably enough tooth left to correct the angles, it takes a while to do that without overheating the teeth. I may just toss this one back into the pile for now and start over with another chain.

For you misdemeanors I recommend doing by it by hand, it will teach patience and good filing practice and you won't forget.

Could I get an opinion on which tooth pattern is better before I mangle another chain, fig. 1 or fig. 2? (or as my eye doctor says, better 1 or better 2?)

Fig. 1

--/--/--|--/--/--|--/--/-- --
=======================BAR
----\--\--|--\--\--|--\--

Fig. 2

--/--|--/--|--/--|--/-- |--
========================BAR
----\--|--\--|--\--|--\--|--

I don't see any benefits from either 1 or 2. If I was going to make an alternating pattern chain I would use the granberg style chain which is Fig 2 but with the top plate of the 3rd cutter removed just leaving the side plate to act as scoring tooth. See the granberg site for details.

 

[Booma]

I will check into one of those file guides; sounds like a good idea. I'd like to see some cuts made by other folks to see how smooth a properly designed chain cuts.

Here is a fairly close up shot of the cut I made with my first chain.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v637/booma72/?action=view&current=100_6191.jpg

Here is one with the cut I made this afternoon with my second chain. This cut quite a bit faster and was a bit smoother.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v637/booma72/?action=view&current=100_6190.jpg

I'd say the chances of me correcting that first chain at all are pretty slim; with a file...maybe some rainy day LOL!

 

[BobL]

I will check into one of those file guides; sounds like a good idea. I'd like to see some cuts made by other folks to see how smooth a properly designed chain cuts.

Your finish looks about normal for chisel chain.

If you want a smooth finish with a CS use regular semi-chisel chain (ie full complement) with minimal top plate angle (eg 5º) and cut as slowly as possible.

This is what you will see with chisel V semi chisel.

Chisel makes a file like finish whereas semichisel makes a scalloped like finish. For most practical purposes, for most resawing and finishing, I end up removing more wood due to warpage and straightening a piece of timber than anything due to the finish produced by the CS.

 

[magnus]

i am in a similiar boat

hi, glad to know i am not the only wood cutting moron here.

i was a computer tech and police dog trainer in my old life stateside...not exactly lumberjack material either.

but it is oddly addictive.

looking forward to learning along side you.

 

[BobL]

but it is oddly addictive.

I keep telling myself - "It's not odd - it's entirely normal, everyone else is odd!"

 

[Booma]

Hi Magnus, it's a pleasure to be in company with you. Although since I have hacked up a couple of small logs with my undersized saw now, I consider myself to be a seasoned veteran of the chainsaw milling crowd LOL!.

You're absolutely right about the addiction part; I can't wait to get back up to my cabin this weekend!

 

[Fallguy1960]

Booma if you still have that extra mill for sale I would be interested. I have been using a friends and like you said it is addicting.

 

[Robert Hersh]

What is happening here there is the second cutter (which now has a negative rake) will not grab any wood and in fact push itself and the chain away from the side of the kerf. This also means only half the cutters are cutting so it's like running skip chain without the benefits of increased chip clearance. Like all skip chain it loses that initial sharp edge quicker than full comp and explains why the cutting seemed to be slowing down.

BTW this chain setup can also can wear/damage the chain and bar since the chain will be pulled down the groove in a snake like way instead of in a smooth straight line. Best to grind those cutters correctly before it does any long term damage.

 

[Robert Hersh]

I had to purchase a granberg
G1012XT Precision Grinder

There are several models of Granberg sharpeners around, and this one is very suited to novices and pros. Basically it is a jig with a high speed (24000 RPM) stone to keep angles and depths right. They sell currently for around $75.

Why I had to purchase this sharpener is that I had a Carlton rip chain on my milling saw and could not find a file that could hold up to the high quality and temper of the Carlton rip chain. Even brought the chain into the shop that I used, and watched the owner roll over the teeth of every file he tried, including some Swedish made ones.

My choice was to either toss the chain away or toss the files away and get the G1012XT grinder.

The Carlton chain stayed sharp longer than any other chain I ever used and it was not brittle, but tough. The quality of tool steel, heat hardening process, then following the tempering process used, made the Carlton chain a very tough act to beat. Yep, you could not sharpen it with a conventional file (diamond file would probably have worked but too much fuss and time would be needed to use one) however the Granberg sharpener did not care what it was grinding/honing.

 

[BobL]

I disagree that a grinder is needed to sharpen Carlton ripping chain. You must have had a worn file or a bad batch of chain (unlikely). A couple of weeks ago I just got a fresh roll of it and some new Valorbe files and they had no trouble sharpening its.

 

[DTrap]

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. Thousands and thousands of feet of Carlton chain has been sold over the years and resharpened over and over again with regular files. If you couldn't sharpen it with out a special file or grinder most people wouldn't purchase it and it is a well like chain in most parts.

 

[Robert Hersh]

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. Thousands and thousands of feet of Carlton chain has been sold over the years and resharpened over and over again with regular files. If you couldn't sharpen it with out a special file or grinder most people wouldn't purchase it and it is a well like chain in most parts.

I am not saying that I did not like Carlton, but the chainsaw shop I took my Carlton chain to did not have a file in their shop that could even put a dent in the Carlton chain. While the shop's owner was not too much into milling (at least I do not think so) he was into competitive chain sawing. One name that I can recall was Greer. I watch them go at it, with their specialized fuels and honed chains (not sharpened, but honed and really suitable only for the one time contest competition before it had to be re-honed).

Unfortunately, I know he competed with Greer, but I forgot his name as it has been quite some time now. The last time I heard from him was about twenty years ago, when my old Jonsered 70E (low RPM, very high torque, and one of the first commercial saws that came with an electronic ignition module) became just too heavy for me to handle safely. He showed up at my house after I had advertised the saw, and purchased the still working 70E. He was older than I was, so being curious, I asked why would he be interested in my old chain saw. He had retired, but was starting up a working chain saw museum, and felt that the 70E was a classic and had a place in his museum. Never heard from him again as he is now probably pushing up daisies.

The Grandberg precision sharpener is still around though, and while it changed very little over at least four decades, I think I might have been one of the first ones to own a Grandberg. The entire outside plastic housing failed with cracks after just a few uses, so I contacted Grandberg. They apologized, and stated they had changed the formulation of their plastic and I must have gotten the old formulation. They sent me a set of the newly formulated housing, and the only minor problem I had in four decades was I wore out a drive belt which is very easy to replace.

For what seems to be a fairly flimsy looking sharpener, I was quite surprised at its durability. I have recommended this sharpener to many of my friends over the years, and none have ever complained about it. I truly believe my old Granberg is likely to still be around after I am gone.