What Pinus? in a country without them

[Ignacio Larco]

Hi guys , I used to be a good tree id guy but conyphers and paricularly pinus is not my best field, except from a few from Mexico and central America. This species is growing in my university in Lima , Perú. I used the Farjon magnificent book, and my best guess was to get to the old world Pinus. It has consistently 3 leaf per sheet, average 25 cm long and arround 1.1 mm wide. The cones are loustrous, brown or dark brown, has prominent apophysis but without prickles, . The seeds are 10 mm large, have wings. Other details you can see from the pictures. Thank you in advance!!

Images:

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Hi guys , I used to be a good tree id guy but conyphers and paricularly pinus is not my best field, except from a few from Mexico and central America. This species is growing in my university in Lima , Perú. I used the Farjon magnificent book, and my best guess was to get to the old world Pinus. It has consistently 3 leaf per sheet, average 25 cm long and arround 1.1 mm wide. The cones are loustrous, brown or dark brown, has prominent apophysis but without prickles, . The seeds are 10 mm large, have wings. Other details you can see from the pictures. Thank you in advance!!

Images:

Tomorrow I will upload seeds photo

 

[pdqdl]

Research says: There are no pine species native to Peru. Whatever your tree is, it is an import.

Include some sort of scale on those needles, too. Length is important!

Take a closeup of the cross-section of a needle, and pluck a few of the fasicles of needles from the branch. I cannot confirm that they all have 3 needles.

I found this description of your climate:

"In Capital Lima, rain is rare, even though half of the year, the sky is overcast. During the winter on the southern Hemisphere, from June to October, the temperature may barely reach 20 °C, the sky is overcast and a morning fog or drizzle may bring some precipitation, while humidity is high. In summer, from December to April, the weather often is a bit sunnier but it may still be cloudy; temperatures may get as high as 29 °C. Night temperatures vary from 14 °C in winter to 20 °C in summer. Like anywhere else on the coast of Peru, the climate gets seriously disrupted during El Niño years, when currents from the North bring considerable warmer water to the coast. Air temperatures rise considerably and heavy rains wreak havoc on the desert environments."​

​

My best guess so far: Pinus radiata (Monterey Pine)
I would speculate a grey pine, on account of the needle color and that heavily ridged bark,
but they have very long cones.

For pines with 3 needles to a fascicle, Virginia tech dendrology suggests these trees.

https://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrolo...r1=pines&leafconifer2=clusters&leafconifer3=3​

Now if you discover some fascicles of only 2, that will open up your options a bit.

I suspect your tree is badly infected with Diplodia tip blight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplodia_tip_blight

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Thank you

pdqdl​

I will check these 7 suggestions from Virginia Tech.
And when back to the campus, I am gona get fresh needles to photograf and show here as you suggest
Regards,
Ignacio

Research says: There are no pine species native to Peru. Whatever your tree is, it is an import.

Include some sort of scale on those needles, too. Length is important!

Take a closeup of the cross-section of a needle, and pluck a few of the fasicles of needles from the branch. I cannot confirm that they all have 3 needles.

I found this description of your climate:

"In Capital Lima, rain is rare, even though half of the year, the sky is overcast. During the winter on the southern Hemisphere, from June to October, the temperature may barely reach 20 °C, the sky is overcast and a morning fog or drizzle may bring some precipitation, while humidity is high. In summer, from December to April, the weather often is a bit sunnier but it may still be cloudy; temperatures may get as high as 29 °C. Night temperatures vary from 14 °C in winter to 20 °C in summer. Like anywhere else on the coast of Peru, the climate gets seriously disrupted during El Niño years, when currents from the North bring considerable warmer water to the coast. Air temperatures rise considerably and heavy rains wreak havoc on the desert environments."​

​

My best guess so far: Pinus radiata (Monterey Pine)
I would speculate a grey pine, on account of the needle color and that heavily ridged bark,
View attachment 1171193 but they have very long cones.

For pines with 3 needles to a fascicle, Virginia tech dendrology suggests these trees.

https://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrolo...r1=pines&leafconifer2=clusters&leafconifer3=3​

Now if you discover some fascicles of only 2, that will open up your options a bit.

I suspect your tree is badly infected with Diplodia tip blight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplodia_tip_blight

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Hello guys thanks to @pdqdl , the best guess is P. roxburghii (Chir pine)

 

[pdqdl]

Needle length is our best differentiation from the Monterey pine. Perhaps some of your pine cones are longer than measured?

Height and profile of limbs looks good for your selected species. Chir pine is certainly a more southern species of pine for north of the equator, so it might be a likely choice for transplanting.
I've never seen one, of course.

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Hello again, I am pretty sure it is not Monterrey pine, we have it here in the Andes, certainly it has much shorter needles than my sample. The suspected Chir pine needles I´ve meassured where 27 to 30.5 cm long

Note: indeed we are here very close to the Ecuator , and yet we have subtropical arid climate due to to the cold stream in the Pacific, so many species form arround the world can grow in the coast.

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Well, to close this case, I have to admit against my wish (in favour to the more exotic Chir pine) that the species is P. canariensis, it complies the checks. Thank you @pdqdl again!

 

[pdqdl]

How did you come to that conclusion? Inquiring minds want to know!

Particularly since that species never popped up on the Virginia Tech list.

 

[pdqdl]

Researching further...
The Canary pine has a detailed description here: https://www.conifers.org/pi/Pinus_canariensis.php

For most plants, getting the exact species identified is more a case of close examination of the reproductive parts than any other detail, so I'm focusing on the pine cones. Unfortunately, I don't have any real expertise in this area when it comes to pine trees.





I clipped this image from your pine cones:
The description of the Umbo doesn't seem like a good match for your tree. "the umbo is dorsal, flat to slightly raised, 6-9 mm wide, and brown to grey-buff." Those look like pretty pointy umbos to me, and not terribly brown.

Conversely, here is a picture of the cone from a Canary Island pine: (supposedly)
https://www.myseeds.co/products/pin...sland-pine-canary-pine?variant=42306842067137

Clearly, not a match for your tree. Unfortunately, I am losing faith in getting a good ID on your tree. I am finding a lot of very different pictures of Canary Island pine cones, and only this one seems to match the description of the cone from the Gymnosperm database. Worse yet, this picture doesn't match the other pics on the same web-page for that plant, and it is claiming to sell seeds for the Canary Pine.

Here is an ID pic of the cone, matched to other species outside the US.




Furthermore, all these pictures seem to take the pictures at different stages of life for each species, so no real comparison can be made.

Tough ID, eh?

 

[pdqdl]

Bark of the Canary Island pine doesn't seem like a good match to your tree by the Google internet search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pin...TCIgQrNwCegUIhQEQAA&biw=1496&bih=694&dpr=1.25

 

[pdqdl]

Assuming that an arboretum should know what species of pine they are dealing with, we should be able to discover our species by comparison, right? Here are pics of your Chir pine:



Notice that the author on that page admits confusing the Canary Island for the Chir pine.
https://www.waynesword.net/arbimg4a.htm

 

[pdqdl]

The most distinguishing feature I have found for the Canary Island pine is the ability to form epicomic growth, a feature listed in the Gymnosperm database.


https://treesofsantacruzcounty.blogspot.com/2011/05/pinus-canariensis-canary-island-pine.html
This author seems to have that tree species figured out pretty well, although the pine cones he pictures are in stark contrast to the Gymnosperm database listing: these are NOT flat umbos.

 

[Ignacio Larco]

Hello again , I like the way the discussion has turned out. I think I have good arguments but as I said I am not pinus expert , I am more into tropical trees, so I can be wrong in my conclusion. Let me one day to do it properly in my PC . Now I am with cellphone.

 

[pdqdl]

It would be a mistake to confuse me with an expert on pine trees also. I am a great deal more expert on deciduous trees in the Midwest of the USA, and not many folks are more expert than me at keying out native plants in the State of Missouri.

My massive textbook is about the most comprehensive I have ever seen on any plant topic. I took a plant taxonomy course a long time ago, and the professor practically had this book memorized! He was awesome at identifying plants. So good he was, that he could identify many plants as they flashed by while we were driving, and in the lab he would even quote what page of the book an entry was on.

Unfortunately, that book is no help whatsoever on trees down in South America, and of limited use for introduced landscape plants even in Missouri.

https://www.amazon.com/Flora-Missouri-Julian-Steyermark/dp/0813806550

 

[diver64]

Researching further...
The Canary pine has a detailed description here: https://www.conifers.org/pi/Pinus_canariensis.php

For most plants, getting the exact species identified is more a case of close examination of the reproductive parts than any other detail, so I'm focusing on the pine cones. Unfortunately, I don't have any real expertise in this area when it comes to pine trees.
View attachment 1172837


View attachment 1172843

I clipped this image from your pine cones: View attachment 1172850
The description of the Umbo doesn't seem like a good match for your tree. "the umbo is dorsal, flat to slightly raised, 6-9 mm wide, and brown to grey-buff." Those look like pretty pointy umbos to me, and not terribly brown.

Conversely, here is a picture of the cone from a Canary Island pine: (supposedly)
https://www.myseeds.co/products/pin...sland-pine-canary-pine?variant=42306842067137
View attachment 1172852
Clearly, not a match for your tree. Unfortunately, I am losing faith in getting a good ID on your tree. I am finding a lot of very different pictures of Canary Island pine cones, and only this one seems to match the description of the cone from the Gymnosperm database. Worse yet, this picture doesn't match the other pics on the same web-page for that plant, and it is claiming to sell seeds for the Canary Pine.

Here is an ID pic of the cone, matched to other species outside the US.
View attachment 1172857
View attachment 1172858
View attachment 1172859

Furthermore, all these pictures seem to take the pictures at different stages of life for each species, so no real comparison can be made.

Tough ID, eh?

Not so sure on those cones. They look open to me in the op pictures.

 

[pdqdl]

OP has one that is not open at all, and one that is not fully open.